"Ask a Christian!"

[AnimatedDirt]

Animated Dirt, I appreciate you taking the time to respond to what I've thrown out on the table.

Getting to this...maybe later tonight or tomorrow. 

[Too Few Lions]

The point we all, Atheist and Christian, agree on is that we all will die.  No one person is immortal.  The Christian (and other religions) simply hopes for something more and trusts in something that has shown a certain degree of foreknowledge.  The "myth" is that God has done all that is necessary for life after death and all one needs to do is believe.  That's it.  One doesn't HAVE TO DO anything.  The whole point is that if one loves something/someone, nothing is done from the standpoint of "must" but rather from love for...

I know this is futile telling you, though.  There is enough reason to believe and just enough reason to disbelieve.  It gives everyone full choice and every person is 100% in charge of their own stance.  Do you stand on your own or do you stand in need of a savior?  That is the question and the answer you give simply etches your place in the universe at death.

I don't really see why you need to bring death into the equation, although I guess Christians have always been obsessed with death and their afterlife, and playing on the fear of death (and the fear of eternal punishment for non-believers) has always swelled church congregations. As an atheist I couldn't disagree more strongly with the assumption that whether or not to believe in the Christian god or saviour 'simply etches our place in the universe at death' (although I can see how it might seem so very important to a believer).  I think the choice of which god or saviour to believe in (or not) affects one's life far more than one's death. Death seems pretty irrelevant to me, I like to concentrate on living and enjoying life. As Epicurus succinctly noted;

'Death does not concern us, because as long as we exist, death is not here. And when it does come, we no longer exist'

[Sweetdeath]

Death is the one thing that no human or beast has control over, but even watching horror films or the news, I could care less.

I think most people only think of death as it is happening to them.  But, meh.. I'm almost 30. I lived a good life.  I don't know how i'll go, but i'll continue to get up in the morning and drink coffee, and go about my day.

[Davin]

This looks very contradictory: One must believe to be saved along with not having to do anything. Only one can be true: either we don't have to do anything or we have to believe (believing being at least one thing). Would you mind clearing this up? As it stands: the god wants us to do something from the standpoint of "must" (one must believe), rather from love.

Certainly.  The answer is the difference between a physical action (good works) and a passive action (belief).  In that sense is what I mean to say there is nothing that needs be done.  It is often referred to as a gift.  One (in a sense) must accept a gift to therefore use it...reach out and take it.  There's nothing that one does to gain or deserve the gift...as it is a gift.  But you do have to actively take it.  Slightly contradictory as an analogy, but I think it conveys the point.

This doesn't help very much. So a person could believe, kill millions of people and then jump off a building to kill him/her self, and be welcomed lovingly into heaven? Because you say that belief is the only thing that matters and not physical actions. Which means that one can't do anything to get into heaven and equally there is nothing that can be done to not get into heaven. If this is the case, then why the ten commandments and teachings of Jesus? Why even worry about morals at all when they don't even matter?

I don't think this is true at all, if there were enough reason to believe in a god, I would. There is enough reason to accept many things, but I see no reason to believe in something that is supposed to be doing so many things that has so little evidence for it. Also, these two problems present more than enough reason to not believe in your flavor of god

Apparently there is enough reason to believe, otherwise there would be NO believers.  You may require more evidence or better evidence or even proof, but that doesn't make the available evidence unsatisfactory as there are plenty of believers.  It's just not enough for "you".

Right, because all people always do rational things. I'm sorry, but the argument from majority is not a very effective point to make. We can see from humans bumbling through the Earth being the center of the universe, the Earth being flat, maggots growing from meat, there being no such things as germs, thinking slavery is OK'd by god... etc. that people will believe things without sufficient evidence. The entire human population could believe in unicorn riding, cyborg, pirate leprechauns, that doesn't mean there is enough reason for them to believe it nor does it justify the belief. Irrational is irrational no matter how many other people are also irrational.

[Sweetdeath]

Hey, Davin...

I want a unicorn. Or even a cyborg unicorn like vampire hunter D.

Orz..yeah, science can make that xD

[Davin]

Who doesn't want a cyborg unicorn? I doubt anyone would deny the awesomeness of a cyborg unicorn. Attach some wings on it and have a cyborg unipegacorn.

[Sweetdeath]

That would be freaking awesome~

[AnimatedDirt]

If you wouldn't mind, though, please don't make the assumption that an answer from yourself and a fellow Christian is going to be a non-answer, or sharing your perspective with me is a futile effort.  I'm still in flux, you see.  I'm trying to explore what the universe around me is going to offer as a response to my concerns, and I am refining my beliefs as I go.

A look at the posts in reply to my post/answer suffices to prove it is a non-answer, but I assumed wrongly it would be for "you".  It's the kind of replies I'm more expecting as it has been almost the norm.  However if I don't give my (Christian) perspective at all, the HAF community may always think it has the right take on what Christians believe/promote.  HAF on the whole disagrees, I have no allusions of recruiting any to the Christian side, but simply to enlighten some from a different perspective. 

There is this notion that he knows what is in the hearts and minds of all of us, and it seems like there is a lot more that he could do (in subtle ways...if he must) that speaks to each individual in the way that they absolutely need, to dispel each individual's doubt.  Anything less doesn't reflect effectively on how important Jesus efforts and sacrifice are supposed to be, if you follow my line of reasoning (feel free to offer an alternative perspective, that's why I'm asking in the "Ask a Christian" topic, I am not taking this lightly).

God does know each heart and does know what each person requires to know Him.  The problem (I see humanly) is that there are many Atheists even here at HAF that have been asked the question, "What would it take to believe in God?"  Whatever the answer is, it varies, the end of the matter is, "It doesn't matter to me if God does exist and wants me...I would never love/follow a god like that..."  So in those cases, there is no reason for God to reveal Himself to them in a special manner.  But what about the people (like you maybe) that are searching for answers?  The questions and issues that someone in the position of searching for answers is usually asking the same questions another has asked and is satisfied with the answer.  In all probability, there is an answer to questions and an answer that someone has found satisfactory for their needs.  I'm almost positive that one can do a search on today's internet to find most answers or explanations to questions raised by the skeptics.  Whether or not they satisfy is left to each individual.  It's a choice each one makes. 

Regarding the Tapping Out thing, I wasn't necessarily approaching it from a view of being released at the end of our lives, I'm more thinking of a non-terminal situation in life where someone can still be begging and praying to God desperately, "Please, make it stop, make it stop, it's unbearable, make it stop!"  You can use your imagination to fill in the blank for what they're praying to be saved from.  From the perspective I was approaching this example, if a Sensei didn't follow his own rules and release a person who is tapping out, then the Sensei might find his students are starting to leave the Dojo.  Life isn't over, and an enthusiasm for martial arts isn't necessarily at an end either.

I am an inadequate vessel to convey these deep thoughts, but I'll try my best as I always do.  The first analogy that comes to mind to TRY and convey this is that of drag racing where the car(s) represent humanity and the owners/mechanics/drivers/enthusiasts represent God.  It's not a perfect analogy and probably fails on many points, but it is what popped into my mind first.  I'll go with it.  Dragsters/Funny Cars and the like are custom built (for the most part).  They are built for a purpose.  To travel 1,320 ft as fast as possible.  Sometimes the cars make it and win, sometimes they lose.  Sometimes the engine blows and sometimes the car crashes.  To personify the car is to say that the wins are good lives that while their wheels spin at some point, maybe the steering wavers the car a bit, but the life of that car is on the whole good.  Another car's engine couldn't stand the strain and so explodes or a car is not driven correctly or a tire blows, whatever the case, and the car ends up exploding and hitting the guardrails, flipping and simply just coming apart.  This represents the person(s) whose lives are not going so well, to say the least or whose lives have ended, death, even suicide.  Now, other than the pain the owner of the car and those that have put long hours of time, sweat and tears into that car, as long as the team is able, they are able to reconstruct that car to race another day.  You follow me?  It hurts to see the "pain" the car is going through and sometimes it simply cannot be changed as life on a track can be dangerous.  The danger represents life with sin present.  One side of the point then says, "What does it matter if the owner of the car or the mechanics/driver decide to run the car into a wall?  What possibly can be learned or gained from that?  Well, we have a company that does that A LOT and out of that we learn about how to build safer cars.  What about the "car" that is scared of speed and doesn't want to race, but is raced anyway?  The car is "owned" by the one that put it together/made it.  Who's to tell the owner how to use that which he's created?  It's his car, right?  If the owner/mechanic can recreated it, fix it, or make it better the second time, what is the real problem?  Therein lies the difference in thinking by human standards and by God's.  The Sensei is just another vehicle.  The Sensei cannot recreate, rebuild, restore someone he's chocking out.  The Sensei rules his own house, but within his house, life and the creation of it, is not something he rules over.  So in the big scheme of things, the track (life) is dangerous (has sin in it).  The cars (we) are not on that track by choice.  The track exists by default (fault of another) and is the only place for cars to race (humans live).  Therefore if God is able to rebuild, what does it matter if one should die or suffer?  (that's not to say God enjoys suffering as an enthusiast of car racing loves the cars and the race, but doesn't like the pain or death his/her passion can cause)  This is why Christians are (as some express it) obsessed with death.  On the contrary though.  Christians are obsessed with life, death is simply a hurdle between this life and a better life. 

Viewing the Tapping Out scenario in the direction of a more terminal situation just directs my thoughts toward people who commit suicide.  Another very serious problem.  We never know what is in the heart and mind of a person who has reached the point of suicide.  But I have to wonder if there are some who genuinely feel like they cannot go on in this world; it really is too much, and they really have been tested beyond what they are capable of handling.  I've been very dismayed to hear how Christians have responded to the issue a few times in the past; and have longed for more careful, thoughtful, honest, and introspective reflection than I've seen in the past.  Very troubling.

I'm not positive on the suicide side of the situation.  Some Christians equate human suicide with spiritual suicide.  That being that if a person takes their own life, then that is a sin that cannot be reversed and therefore cannot be saved.  This is not taught in the bible, in fact, the bible teaches that there is only one Unpardonable Sin.  That is the sin of grieving the Spirit or basically ignoring God's still-small-voice constantly and so much so that there comes a point at which the person no longer hears God.  That is the only sin that cannot ever be forgiven.  How can God save a person that doesn't want saving?  God is not in the business of forcing Himself on anyone.  He respects each persons choice.  Basically, I don't know exactly how/where suicide plays into being saved or not.  I trust that God will judge each one fairly.  I don't promote suicide as spiritual suicide.  There's no evidence that it is.

As a housekeeping matter, right now I loath God as defined by the infrastructure, constructs and conventions of Christianity (and the other Abrahamic approaches as well).  I don't want to waste my time, energy and mental wellbeing channeling hatred, though.  As for the God I don't know, as not defined or limited by any religion, I don't want to be preoccupied with him in equal measure to how he doesn't seem to want to be to preoccupied with human affairs.  I don't know if I could ever really like him, because my personality is hard wired to be extremely wary of authority figures as a general thing.  So, ostensibly I suppose I am sort of still a misotheist, to a certain extent.  I latched onto that label when I tried searching for others online who have felt the same way as I have in the distant past and most recent present (I knew I didn't fit the bill of Atheist), and a book called Hating God had some interesting perspectives on offer to help me sift through my feelings.  Another member on this forum said something that gave me the impression that misotheism has tended to be (or is commonly regarded as) a kind of pupal-stage for people who eventually transition into something else.  I think that's become true for me, but I'm still exploring, trying to find my way.  I imagine someone could pin a label on me, but just like Abrahamic religions do to God, trying to pin a person down by definition, it only provides a simplified explanation for people trying to understand a phenomenon (but within the phenomenon itself, things are much more complicated).

Whatever label you pin on yourself or others on you, it seems clear to me you have a need for answers.

[Too Few Lions]

I lived a good life.  I don't know how i'll go, but i'll continue to get up in the morning and drink coffee, and go about my day.

that's better philosophy than has been written in 100 holy books!

[Sweetdeath]

I lived a good life.  I don't know how i'll go, but i'll continue to get up in the morning and drink coffee, and go about my day.

that's better philosophy than has been written in 100 holy books!

Aww, shucks.  Thank you~ and plus, my Sundays are always free xP

[AnimatedDirt]

and plus, my Sundays are always free xP

Mine too!

[Sweetdeath]

and plus, my Sundays are always free xP

Mine too!

Nice. I don't miss working retail when I worked weekends. X_x

[xSilverPhinx]

and plus, my Sundays are always free xP

Mine too!

What about your Saturday?

(My grandparents are 7th day Adventists...)

[AnimatedDirt]

What about your Saturday?
(My grandparents are 7th day Adventists...)

Imagine that.  Me too.  I know many SDA's that dread Saturdays simply because they are doing the "Sabbath" thing out of a 'must do' rather than a 'I get to...'.  I have a few responsibilities in the morning at church which isn't the greatest at the moment of waking up, but after I'm up, it's all gravy.  My Saturday's are filled with lots of time with friends and family.  I can't claim to keep the Sabbath perfectly, but it is a time I look forward to all week.  (I don't necessarily look forward to getting up early, but it's part of the day)  I get to sleep in on Sundays. 

[Sweetdeath]

I don't function before 10am.  X_x