Re: When did "separation of church and state" mean something else?

[Crow]

Putting "in god we trust" on money, and forcing children to say "one nation, under god" in public schools doesn't sound like separation at all, in my opinion.

It may not be a separation from belief in a god but it is a separation from any particular religion, even though it does seem to favor the monotheistic institutions it doesn't endorse any individual religion; that god could be Allah to a person of an Islamic belief, Yahweh to Christians and Jews or the deist idea of a god. There is a difference between separation from the organisation of religion and separation from the belief in that religion.

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I can see why a Christian could get pissed off at the phrase, as church solely relates to the christian building of worship but its not what the word "church" means literally but what it stands for conceptually. It is also used internationally in this conceptual form.

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@Gawen that is exactly what I was trying to say but obviously failing to do so.

[Davin]

Putting "in god we trust" on money, and forcing children to say "one nation, under god" in public schools doesn't sound like separation at all, in my opinion.

It may not be a separation from belief in a god but it is a separation from any particular religion, even though it does seem to favor the monotheistic institutions it doesn't endorse any individual religion; that god could be Allah to a person of an Islamic belief, Yahweh to Christians and Jews or the deist idea of a god. There is a difference between separation from the organisation of religion and separation from the belief in that religion.

While not respecting religions that do not believe in a god. Which would be making laws respecting an establishment of religion by respecting religions that beieve in a god over religions that believe in multiple gods and religions that do not believe in any god or gods.

[Crow]

While not respecting religions that do not believe in a god. Which would be making laws respecting an establishment of religion by respecting religions that beieve in a god over religions that believe in multiple gods and religions that do not believe in any god or gods.

Hence why there is an uprising of individuals and groups that are questioning this as they have there constitution to support the argument. However in the case of Aronow v. United States the court ruled "It is quite obvious that the national motto and the slogan on coinage and currency 'In God We Trust' has nothing whatsoever to do with the establishment of religion. Its use is of patriotic or ceremonial character and bears no true resemblance to a governmental sponsorship of a religious exercise."

[Davin]

While not respecting religions that do not believe in a god. Which would be making laws respecting an establishment of religion by respecting religions that beieve in a god over religions that believe in multiple gods and religions that do not believe in any god or gods.

Hence why there is an uprising of individuals and groups that are questioning this as they have there constitution to support the argument. However in the case of Aronow v. United States the court ruled "It is quite obvious that the national motto and the slogan on coinage and currency 'In God We Trust' has nothing whatsoever to do with the establishment of religion. Its use is of patriotic or ceremonial character and bears no true resemblance to a governmental sponsorship of a religious exercise."

Did you cite this ruling because you agree with it?

Edit: Meant "cite" instead of "site".

[Sweetdeath]

While not respecting religions that do not believe in a god. Which would be making laws respecting an establishment of religion by respecting religions that beieve in a god over religions that believe in multiple gods and religions that do not believe in any god or gods.

Hence why there is an uprising of individuals and groups that are questioning this as they have there constitution to support the argument. However in the case of Aronow v. United States the court ruled "It is quite obvious that the national motto and the slogan on coinage and currency 'In God We Trust' has nothing whatsoever to do with the establishment of religion. Its use is of patriotic or ceremonial character and bears no true resemblance to a governmental sponsorship of a religious exercise."

That's bullshit.


We need to update a lot of stuff. How could they say it has nothing to do with religion when they make you swear on a bible before testimony?

[Gawen]

Awwwwww....In God We Trust  is normally and more than probable to denote the Judeo/ Christian God. But there are 2700 other gods to choose from. So pick one, whether it be Biblical or not and the next time this subject comes up tell them your new God...*chucklin* and how you trust it.

I may go with Huitzilopochtli, if I can figure out how to pronounce it. Same goes for swearing on a Bible. Pick another god or goddess, like Amaterasu, for example. Next time I go up for jury duty I may bring a plate of Spaghetti for something to swear upon.

Then again, if I'm chosen for jury duty I may just tell them I'm a Last Thursdayist and can't swear on anything unless it's a Thursday.

[Sweetdeath]

Awwwwww....In God We Trust  is normally and more than probable to denote the Judeo/ Christian God. But there are 2700 other gods to choose from. So pick one, whether it be Biblical or not and the next time this subject comes up tell them your new God...*chucklin* and how you trust it.

I may go with Huitzilopochtli, if I can figure out how to pronounce it. Same goes for swearing on a Bible. Pick another god or goddess, like Amaterasu, for example. Next time I go up for jury duty I may bring a plate of Spaghetti for something to swear upon.

Then again, if I'm chosen for jury duty I may just tell them I'm a Last Thursdayist and can't swear on anything unless it's a Thursday.

I loooove Shinto Gods.  Amaterasu and her  brothers; Tsukiyomi and Susanoo are amongst my favorite.


That's good advice though. Especially the Thursday thing.  xD

[history_geek]

I loooove Shinto Gods.  Amaterasu and her  brothers; Tsukiyomi and Susanoo are amongst my favorite.

Meh, give me any Finnish god or god of war and I'm happy


In Ukko Perkele we trust

[fester30]

While not respecting religions that do not believe in a god. Which would be making laws respecting an establishment of religion by respecting religions that beieve in a god over religions that believe in multiple gods and religions that do not believe in any god or gods.

Hence why there is an uprising of individuals and groups that are questioning this as they have there constitution to support the argument. However in the case of Aronow v. United States the court ruled "It is quite obvious that the national motto and the slogan on coinage and currency 'In God We Trust' has nothing whatsoever to do with the establishment of religion. Its use is of patriotic or ceremonial character and bears no true resemblance to a governmental sponsorship of a religious exercise."

This strikes me as similar to the argument lawyers in favor of the Utah highway crosses are using.  They are trying to say the crosses aren't making a Christian statement, but are being used as a memorial to dead cops, and in an historical context.  They are saying that the crosses are a universally recognized symbol for memorializing the dead, and other symbols wouldn't put the same message out there to motorists (I guess the message is that cops died). 

These sorts of arguments are an example of Christians diminishing the value of their own symbols and mottos just to keep them around. 

[Abletony]

Awwwwww....In God We Trust  is normally and more than probable to denote the Judeo/ Christian God. But there are 2700 other gods to choose from. So pick one, whether it be Biblical or not and the next time this subject comes up tell them your new God...*chucklin* and how you trust it.

I may go with Huitzilopochtli, if I can figure out how to pronounce it. Same goes for swearing on a Bible. Pick another god or goddess, like Amaterasu, for example. Next time I go up for jury duty I may bring a plate of Spaghetti for something to swear upon.

Then again, if I'm chosen for jury duty I may just tell them I'm a Last Thursdayist and can't swear on anything unless it's a Thursday.

I loooove Shinto Gods.  Amaterasu and her  brothers; Tsukiyomi and Susanoo are amongst my favorite.


That's good advice though. Especially the Thursday thing.  xD

Do you believe in those gods?

[Gawen]

Why do you ask?

[Abletony]

Why do you ask?

Sorry I was asking sweetdeath.

[Sweetdeath]

Awwwwww....In God We Trust  is normally and more than probable to denote the Judeo/ Christian God. But there are 2700 other gods to choose from. So pick one, whether it be Biblical or not and the next time this subject comes up tell them your new God...*chucklin* and how you trust it.

I may go with Huitzilopochtli, if I can figure out how to pronounce it. Same goes for swearing on a Bible. Pick another god or goddess, like Amaterasu, for example. Next time I go up for jury duty I may bring a plate of Spaghetti for something to swear upon.

Then again, if I'm chosen for jury duty I may just tell them I'm a Last Thursdayist and can't swear on anything unless it's a Thursday.

I loooove Shinto Gods.  Amaterasu and her  brothers; Tsukiyomi and Susanoo are amongst my favorite.


That's good advice though. Especially the Thursday thing.  xD

Do you believe in those gods?

No, I'm athiest. I think it is absolutely foolish to believe in any God.   I just enjoy various mythology, especially Shinto, Greek, and Norse.

[Gawen]

No, I'm athiest. I think it is absolutely foolish to believe in any God.   I just enjoy various mythology, especially Shinto, Greek, and Norse.

I just got done reading The Iliad and The Odyssey back to back (for the second time). Those Greek gods were some characters weren't they!! Always muckin' around in mortals lives.

hmmmm...sounds rather familiar, don't it?

[Abletony]

Awwwwww....In God We Trust  is normally and more than probable to denote the Judeo/ Christian God. But there are 2700 other gods to choose from. So pick one, whether it be Biblical or not and the next time this subject comes up tell them your new God...*chucklin* and how you trust it.

I may go with Huitzilopochtli, if I can figure out how to pronounce it. Same goes for swearing on a Bible. Pick another god or goddess, like Amaterasu, for example. Next time I go up for jury duty I may bring a plate of Spaghetti for something to swear upon.

Then again, if I'm chosen for jury duty I may just tell them I'm a Last Thursdayist and can't swear on anything unless it's a Thursday.

I loooove Shinto Gods.  Amaterasu and her  brothers; Tsukiyomi and Susanoo are amongst my favorite.


That's good advice though. Especially the Thursday thing.  xD

Do you believe in those gods?

No, I'm athiest. I think it is absolutely foolish to believe in any God.   I just enjoy various mythology, especially Shinto, Greek, and Norse.

Right.