racism

[EbzDirtyHeathen]

Wow so much to respond to but um to the person who created this thread:


While you personally didn't do anything to have the word removed from your vocabulary w/o sounding harsh or w/e OH WELL.....poor you I guess. Do you want to say it or do you want to say it without risk of being hit? Why would you want to say it given the history and impact of the word? power. Well, I'm all for that, but I can't help because I'm white.   You can't be serious in saying if you can't say it like WE can then we don't want to accept you?! BS. Just because most of us don't want white people saying wassup my nigga or wassup nigger doesn't mean we don't like you or accept you and I might add there is a handful of black people who could careless if whites said nigga or nigger.  You on the other hand bit be a tad big ignorant.

[EbzDirtyHeathen]

Personally, I don't see why anyone would be a racist. To some extent, even the original slave traders knew that the Africans were still people. This is evident in the phrase "black people", is it not? Also, there's nothing really to be gained from racism. It is worth noting that America, as well as the 15th century European powers who tried to colonize Africa, do not currently own Africa. They didn't even get much farther than having colonies in Africa at any point, did they?

Actually, if you 'colonise' a country that pretty much means you own it. There is no 'further' to go, so to speak. Since the French, the Ottomans, the British & the Germans had colonised pretty much all of Africa between them, it was as good as 'owned'.

At any rate, the concept of 'racism' has adopted far too broad a meaning as far as I'm concerned. For example, it isn't remotely historically inaccurate for me to say this:

Before imperial powers took over Africa, they were all killing and enslaving one another in small isolated tribes. We gave them civilisation. In fact said imperial forces didn't actually do much 'enslaving'; more buying slaves from African tribes who had just bested others. If it wasn't for those colonies, slavery would still be going on in Africa.

It's the truth. However it's frowned upon for us to state certain truths. It's politically incorrect. Yet it doesn't demonstrate any emotion (not even hatred), nor does it mention race.

Another thing: we are all descended from slaves - we have just as much right to moan and gripe about it as anyone else - & the world would not be as prosperous and cushy as it is today were it not for that reality. America, for example, would be nothing if we hadn't held its leash for a while (ie. build it). It would be living in the dark ages with no industry (we did that), no modern science (heck, we did that too), no vestige of modern culture (well we pretty much did that) and the list goes on. Similarly, if the Roman empire hadn't conquered Europe, think how far behind we Brits and Europeans in general would be, and you, in turn, would be also? America may not even have been discovered yet for all we know! And you can bet that atheism would be out of the picture. As would Christianity, come to that.

It's all far too complicated to pick out one group (eg. the Africans) and say "oh they were wronged in history and we need to make up for it" because frankly their ancestors might have been wronged but they're reaping the spoils of that just as much as we are (&, as you say, Shoruke, we didn't do anything to them!)

I think whirling it all up and making a huge ridiculous drama out of it is just media spin and stupidity. It's something that's only going to make it worse. People don't like being made to feel guilty about things they never did, to hate their own race, nationality and otherwise for no reason. It's no surprise that you get skin head gangs popping up all over the place.

People categorize things as a way to save mental energy. You'd be exhausted if you thought about and analyzed everything seperately. It also helped with survival way back when. Humans are also placed in categories (race, gender, SES, hair color, etc.). Associations are made with these categories. This is where racism stems from.

agreed.

Yes, we are all people. There is no race "gene".

Yet the races are genetically different & not just in skin colour. Different paths of evolution do lead to different traits both characteristically and physically, however it's still ludicrous to generalise on a level such as this: "orientals are smarter than white people" or "black people are really stupid"

Plenty to be gained from racism ...... that'd be power.



WHAT?! Before they came to colonize and civilize Africans they were just running around and killing each other?  Deliciously ethnocentric. This is greatly eurocentric too so all these civilizations would be crawling on their knees or swinging in trees if great civilized white people hadn't saved them?! ........ seriously?  Africa is the cradle of civilization! There were empires! KINGDOMS!  There'd be no modern science w/o white people....that's a lie too.


What black people are you talking about the benefited from the spoils of slavery? We sir are NOT the benefactors of slavery..... how naive are you? Races are not genetically or biologically different....... there is no biological race even though racial is a real CONCEPT.

[EbzDirtyHeathen]

I went a couple days without replying, so that people had a chance to post...

I'd like to thank everyone for posting, and sharing history lessons and such.

It is true that slavery, in some cases, can be justified. It's true that if we hadn't had a slavery system in ancient Rome/Greece, then Aristotle, Hipocrates, Pythagorus, and several other great people wouldn't have had the time on their hands to educate people on how the world works. But that still doesn't justify racism, that only justifies slavery. (end vs. means?)

here's a hypothetical example. If I could talk to an ancient Roman, and ask him what kind of people he took on as slaves, and why he had slaves at all, he would say "We take those we conquer as slaves so that our aristocrats have more free time to do arts and science, and better our civilization." That wasn't racist.
If I could talk to an ancient American (funny term, but bear with me) and ask him what kind of people he took on as slaves, and why he had slaves at all, he would say "them nigggers had it comin'. Sides', I'm makin money off em and they don't take much feedin'." That's racist. And we know now that it was wrong.

As for the word nigger. It's not that I want to be allowed to insult black people with it, it's that I see their plight to take power away from the word, and I can't help at all, because they won't let me. Does this fact not attest to how little progress they've made to take power away from the word?

My method for removing power from "nigger" would be to support people like Dave Chappelle and Chris Rock (black comedians... lots of swearing and nigger-calling. Nothing takes power from a word like "When I go to a money machine tonight, I'm not lookin' over my back for the media! I'm lookin' fo' NIGGAS!") I guess it's a concept of attrition.
One example: When a kid (roughly 5 yrs. old) swears, his mother will get mad at him/her, and might even ground them. However, the child, influenced by his peers at school, will slowly become more and more vulgar in is mannerisms and speech. By the time he's my age (16), he can say "fuck" around his house and his mother will barely bat an eyelash.
So here's the parallel: the child is me, the mother is black people who hate the word nigger, and schoolmates are the rest of the general populace. Currently, if I use the word nigger, I'm liable to suffer repercussions. But over time, I, along with the people around me, will use increasingly vulgar language, until it enters regular conversation because nobody cares anymore. The black people themselves might not choose to use the word, but they'll see that I don't mean to use it with it's full power of insultingness.

Here's hoping the forum doesn't censor my swearing so that everyone can tell what I said, wish me luck for a good mark when I direct my english teacher to this site. Night everyone!

Slavery can't be justified.


 "We take those we conquer as slaves so that our aristocrats have more free time to do arts and science, and better our civilization."  It can certainly be racist and elitist and ethnocentric........... you can't think your culture is far more superior so since it's so refined that why it's okay to make those we think are beneath us to be like us.

[EbzDirtyHeathen]

the blacks are not reaping these same rewards and i am stunned to hear you imagine this".

Yes they are. Just take a look at how much better the world is now than it was 200 years ago, and for everyone. It wouldn't have been possible for any culture to be vast and self-sustainable enough to stand against slavery if it wasn't built on it in the first place.[/quote]

NO..........no....... we aren't. The world is better for a lot of people now than  200 years ago.... people have ipods and computers but SO WHAT.  What rewards are we getting THE SAME as in on the SAME LEVEL as white people in general.... as a black person who knows the lower-income world of black Americans well TELL ME. TELL ME while we're still 2nd class citizens and a good amount of us still struggle day by day but WE GOT IT GOOD...please tell me.



FOUNTAIN PEN.....black person.
comb ..... black person
elevators....black person.....
.................... dude most of the stuff you named was made by a black person.



For many of the advancements we have you day you might want to thank Africa.

[EbzDirtyHeathen]

Perhaps I'm reading what you said wrong, but I'm pretty sure that melanin pigment plays the predominant role. Chromosomes, I would think, would only play a factor in genes being passed to offspring.

Darn, you had such a lovely vocabulary in your introduction, i was so impressed, was excited maybe it was a genius !!! but not yet an informed, caring mind. dang it.  Anyway, where do you suppose melanin  'genes' are stored?  On the chromosome..

I believe he was using satire

Of course he was, duh.
And i thought he seemed annoyed that he "wasn't allowed " to use the N word......and he definitely DOES lump people.  But you certainly have a right to think that was clever.  And i have a right to help him try to understand that lumping can be a dangerous pitfall on the way to personal evolution.  Sure we all do that, but still, it is a good thing to be cognizant of.

I certainly believe slavery can be justified

Would you still feel slavery can be justified if it was YOUR MOMMA getting sold away from you?  If it was YOU losing all your freedom and rights and being tortured?  Would it be okay if IT WAS YOU??

The posters who all say that slavery is okay--NO one answered  THAT......
omg, am i the only person here who sees how cruel this kinda  thinking is???
 
This almost feels as frustrating as debating with fundies....you are denying your own humanity as WELL AS your reasoning ability for the sake of being oppositional...?  I totally do not really believe you can truly mean what you just said..i can't believe there are still people of your level of not caring at all about justice.

...cool, i just this minute realized i still DO have my idealistic bone still intact somewhere in this body!  yay for me!
Hope you ever get to experience the wonder of owning an idealistic part of your heart...if you ever do find you have grown one, don't scoff at it, protect it with all your might.  Might even last 50 years if you are lucky....

Africa has always been a warring place. "Elegance" is a very subjective thing, anyway. Many early civilizations could be considered "elegant". They were still hostile

America has had several wars, too, and some pretty non-elegant societies of it's own (pilgrims never ever bathed at all ever..once each spring was all!!)  R.Narc, there have been and still are many elegant societies in Africa.  
Too bad you sound like you are too ethnocentric to appreciate them.  NOt to worry, we are all to some extent.

Not all villages were hostile,not at all!!!   Much of the ensuing hostilities between various villages was BROUGHT ON by the slave trading paying one village to steal actual people from another!!!  You gotta admit, that'd piss you off.

 I don't know how 'early' you are referring to, (are we talking trees here?) but at the time of the Crusades and other slave stealers,
there were many many peaceful and elegant societies, where the people were self governed, free, and respected the value of life.  Sorry you don't really seem to.....

Freedom is in the eye of the beholder. How do you figure they were free people

Self governed, with all basic human rights intact.  Chose their own families, their own occupations, their own homes, etc.  Like if you were right now, abducted and thrown into slavery, someone might say, but he USED to be free...see?  And another mihgt say, nah, the eye of the beholder, he wasn't free anyway.

  WHY DO YOU THINK ALL AFRICANS WERE SLAVES OVER THERE?????   there villages were free there, as you are now, until they came HERE.
And i was worried i, being from Indiana, I would be the redneck entering into a real cool evolved buncha people here.......

see, there i go, lumping people.  Sorry midwesterners. Also-- I have always looked up to atheists, i set a higher bar for them than others-which i readily admit is not right to do----but still, something in me is always disappointed to find narrow-minded, ethnocentric or cruel atheists.....always blows me away.  But that is a stereotype of mine, isn't it?  gotta work on that one

people? Slavery is an abstraction, and the periphery of "slaves" and "men, women, and children who had been captured" is quite thin

Back again to feeling like i am debating a Fundy....same exact feeling.  YOU GOTTA BE FREAKIN KIDDING ME???  Slavery is SO not an abstraction, buddy, it involves torture and rape and completely being ruined....would you say the holocaust was also an "abstraction"  ?


Google it, the estimates vary from around 11 MILLION to 20 MILLION that survived the voyage.  The number who died while shackled to wooden beds for months crossing the ocean is unknown...but hey, they were never "free", in your eyes, their shackles were some kinda 'abstraction'... right?  

I don't know if i can spend more time debating you if you aren't even gonna TRY to  keep it real...and honestly, this is probably a waste of time, similar to debating a fundie..


I'm only bothering with you for the benefit of the chance there might be some OTHER young mind reading this and still having a chance to get THEIR light bulb turned on...it is worth a try for the outside chance of helping some other young person reading...however honestly, posts THIS long, no one much reads 'em anyway i don't think...so i might quit with this....

I'm losing hope you can care enough yet about other humans to get the points i am trying to make.....but you are young yet, there is still hope as you grow you will develop this side of yourself more.  Heck, i was probably some kinda mess when i was your age.  At least you are both curious and brave, points for that.

I'm no historian

so i have noticed.

but I highly disagree with that logic

I'm not entirely convinced you are into logic anyway.

That's lacking justification everywhere, and it's a really despondent way of viewing things. Where are you getting those facts?

Life, baby!  I have seen these stats my entire life...they are always the same, and the blacks are almost always getting the short end of the stick.....unless it is some right wing type 'fact'  thing, they can find a way to twist some facts.  We can always find facts to back ourselves up if we search long enuff...  Honestly, if you did Google this, sooner or later, you could PROBABLY find some stats that say how blacks make more money than whites, get better interest rates, get beat up by cops way less than whites, get higher pay, etc etc,  and are just doing peachy only 50 years outa Jim crow.

Despondent, no, actually i feel naively hopeful about improving things.  

If you need me to post stats on how much different life is for blacks than whites, you might be far too ignorant to even benefit from my effort.  But i could do it, but why not do it yourself for a project?  Google racial discrepancies of mortgages rates, pay scales, hiring deficts, college admissions, etc etc etc..  I still stand by my opinion it is way too soon to lose affirmative action.  i take it you only read 'con' half of that article......

Honestly, I don't understand your logic. People know about racism. It's a very prolific topic. I've never understood people who seek to "raise awareness" on huge, in your face issues like this or global warming or any other multitude of reasons. Education isn't a cure. Education is a treatment course. Or, at the very least, a painkiller.

You for one, do not seem aware of racism.  You seem baffled when i refer to the discrepancies in mortgages, pay scales, opportunities.....  I still disagree, and am not gonna bother reposting why....you can re-read my post all over again.....but i honestly don't think it is gonna help you understand, i sense a wall here...and that is okay, you do have a right to feel the way you do.  but it isn't based on facts. but you have a right to believe whatever you wish.

Actually tho, i think i do agree with your remark, there is no cure, only treatment.  YOu are right, it will never ever go away completely.  But we can still try to keep squashing it down anyway.
 

Also, what are you referring to when you said it has already been tried

Really, you couldn't tell by my post what i meant????
Ignoring racism, as a way of making it go away.

Again, I believe that was meant to be taken with a pinch of salt

Nah, truly, reread it in original context.....he was honked.   i kinda think for one's mind to go where he went with this, he has a rotten spot...eeeeough.  Salt might not be enough for it.

Must have some other good qualities though. we've all got our spots.
well, i feel spent and discouraged...i like to think most young people today are more informed than youths of the 30s..i kinda feel like you either
a) are being oppositional just for fun, like a debate team, and you really do care more about people and are aware of racism's effect on the USA......
/or/
b) you really do not know or care.....

either one, it wasn't fun....might give up. just tired.  I am sorry i do not have your vocabulary, McQ's humorus elegance of speech, or SteveS's patience, or Momma Squid's brevity, or rlRose's humility, (is that the right word, she is kinda sweet) so many others with great intelligence and  qualities i don't have, they coulda made much better responses than mine...but i do have passion.  guess i could benefit from trading out a cup of that for a cup of patience...

   
I really mean what i am trying to tell you, that racism is a strong factor in black people's lives, that slavery was real and brutal, and that we have a long way to go, and i still like to believe that if we all try to help squash it out, it could make a difference.  I really do believe that, all together, we could make a little ripple, that could eventually make yet another small shift happen.  Just a good word here or there, it can make a difference...  sometimes.I truly hope you did NOT mean what you said, but i admit your right to say it.
Keep on thinking.....

Yay you do have a brain.

[EbzDirtyHeathen]

I was going to stay out of this but here goes... <sigh>

I believe slavery is wrong... can never be "right" in any sense.

HOWEVER, I do not believe any further reparations are due.  We have had affirmative action, which did nothing but discriminate against others who did not deserve it because places had to make their "quota" to meet guidelines.

Neither I nor any previous generations of my family have done anything to harm the race in question.  I'm HIDEOUSLY sorry they were wronged so grievously... but it's not my job to ensure that entire races are happy again.

How long do we have to apologize?  Same with what happened with the Nazis... how long does Germany and anyone of German descent have to apologize and pay for the mistakes (HORRIBLE mistakes, yes) made a few generations back?  See, I AM of German descent and I'm caucasian... so I have to make reparations to BOTH of these groups of people?  For how long?  And how many  more generations of my decendants will be required to do so?

With the Japanese, the US paid them money and some are still pissed about the interment camps.  I don't blame them.  But there comes a time when moving on is the best way to fix it.  I don't want to dwell on it any further.  The longer we dwell on the wrongs of previous generations, the more likely we are to repeat them.

I don't believe I'm racist in any way, shape or form.  I was tickled pink when I saw that the new 5th grader in our tiny school (5 kids in 5th grade now!) is black.  We are more diverse because of it.  Our little town is frighteningly pale and I WANT my son to be exposed to as many cultures and people as possible and that will only happen if we are colorblind.

So... to sum up... not racist, LOVE diversity, no more reparations or affirmative action, slavery WRONG no matter how you look at it.

Thank you for your time.  

I'm for reparations but reparations don't always have to equal handing someone a check. I wouldn't want a white person saying oh slavery sorry about that...... an I'm sorry would be a slap in the face....i'll pass on that. Didn't Germany pay out reparations?

A lot of racist or at least racially naive people don't think they are racist and/or racially naive....just saying. You can't say no more reparations if they weren't given...... I've never read of a big debate about reparations being paid out to Jews or Japanese Americans and their descendants OR Native Americans but there's always a big debate when it comes to black Americans.....hhhhhmmmm.

[EbzDirtyHeathen]

Racism is a strong factor in black people's lives. Slavery (of blacks) was real and brutal.  We have quite a bit to go, but saying a "long way", and especially bolding and underlining it, is an overstatement.

What makes you say it's an overstatement? Quite the contrary.....if you do actually see what's going on in America right now saying there is a long way to go is an understatement....... this country has a long way to go.

Actually I think we're going backwards as a country.

[EbzDirtyHeathen]

And I do believe they have been given more opportunities... maybe not EVERY SINGLE person of the minority race, but in general, they have.  

The stats don't support your belief.

US statistics of interest:
Annual household income by race

Employment status by race

Infant mortality rates white vs. black

Educational attainment by race

California statistics
Check out the labor force status link for San Francisco county. It doesn't appear that minorities have any advantage over whites, and this is after approximately 45 years of affirmative action, which, by the way, has also allowed white women to make significant headway in the labor force.

ha......................  

And um............. also........ how many white people have forgotten the privilege of just being white?

[rlrose328]

Perhaps I AM naive... I like to think I'm colorblind when it comes to race.  I just don't think about it.  People are people and it matters not what color their skin is, at least to me.  I don't think I have a privilege of being white... but then again, I think people who are naturally thin don't see how privileged they are, either.  So I guess you could be right.

But just because I'm white doesn't mean I take advantage of it any more than we can say that all people of color are on welfare or are Christian.  Any type of blanket statement just can't apply in real life.

Anyone can throw out statistics, but in this debate, I can only speak from my own experience.  When my son's math class got a new student, I saw that she was black and I was tickled because it's a very white school (new Charter school... no clue why it's not more diverse).  My son just chattered on and on about a new student... and when I asked my son to describe his new classmate to my husband that night, the word "black" never came out of his mouth.  She was tall, smart, funny, had "great hair" and "laughed really loud."  That spoke to me.

[EbzDirtyHeathen]

I don't feel people can be colorblind...........not in this country.....not entirely. I agree people are people no matter their color and should be treated as such.  Of course because you're white doesn't mean you personally take advantage of it..... but you think some don't? Well a blanket statements can't apply everywhere anyways.

[rlrose328]

You are right about the color-blind thing, I guess...  there was a "reality" show called "Black/White" where a black family and a white family donned the other race (using really good makeup) to live as the other race whenever they went out.  The things each side faced was really eye-opening.  The white mom was a complete bitch... even by the end, after everything she experienced that was negative (and there was a lot more than I would have expected), she was still insisting she was colorblind and that blacks didn't experience what they so clearly DO.  (I forgot about that show when I posted yesterday.)

Unless we can switch bodies for a few days or weeks, neither of us will truly understand what the other person experiences.  I TRY to be colorblind... would that be more accurate?  I don't feel it's hard or that I have problems with it... but maybe I do and just don't see it.

I'll concede there are whites who take advantage of their race... but you'll have to concede there are blacks who take advantage of Affirmative Action and other options available to them by using the race card as well.

Can we agree there are problems on both sides?

[SteveS]

About the color-blind thing ... I don't know.  Its interesting.  Here's something that happened to me that made me think about this issue: 10 years ago I was staying in Silver Springs Maryland while working on an account in D.C. (the downtown hotels were all full 'cause of cherry blossom week - really?  Yes, really.  This place advertised "close to the Metro" - a brisk 25 minute walk apparently qualifies as "close").  I went to dinner at a local bar/restaurant type place, and after a while I just suddenly realized that I was the only white person in the place - everybody else was black.  This didn't disturb or concern me in any way - but it was strange to me that after being there for an hour or so it suddenly registered.  Would I have noticed sooner if I was black, and everyone else was white?  I don't know.  Then again, why did I suddenly notice?  Why didn't I notice right away?  I guess I'm just not used to noticing.  I'm not used to "seeing" races, or thinking about other people's race, or being highly aware of the race of people around me.  But - I did notice after a time.  So - am I colorblind?  Clearly not.  But, I'm also not highly attuned to other people's racial makeup.  Weird?  I relate this simply as a curious experience.  I grew up in an integrated school with lots of kids of different races - white, black, Indian (as in, from India, not Native American), and Asian.  If you're exposed to other people of different races when you're young, do you just not care so much what other people's race is?  Maybe.  (shrugs)

The young lady tending bar and filling up my beer glass was really, really cute.  This I noticed right away.  So, I'm clearly not genderblind.  Maybe she distracted me from the other patrons?  I thought we exchanged more than one warm smile, maybe even a flirtatious glance or two.  Or I was deluded and she was just being nice.  Or, she wasn't colorblind either, and was just amused by the one white guy in the place.  Who knows?  Maybe she was irresistibly attracted to my raw animal magnetism - yeah, that was probably it!  :roll:  

She sure was cute though - no scandal btw - I was single in '97.  :wink:

[SteveS]

On a more serious note, I've reviewed some parts of this lengthy thread, but I wanted to pull out:

My 2cts. People should be judged on their acts, not on skin colour, religion, sex or whatever. For that reason I'm against any kind of discrimination (both negative and possitive). Historical mistakes, like slavery and the holocaust, should never be forgotten. On the other hand, how much are "we" to blame on what our forefathers did? Does for example a german child that is born today still has to feel guilty of what happened 3-4 generations ago? That doesn't seem right to me. Another problem that I see is that many people believe that the decendents of the former victims have more moral rights than other people. Since WW-II until now, no german politician would even dare to criticise Israel. This is rather silly, because what ever happens nowadays in Israel is not related to the holocaust.

I wish to congratulate you, Tom62, for offering up such a rational position.  I agree with this wholeheartedly.  To say otherwise is to say the child is responsible for the 'sins' of the parent.  And that idea I reject, entirely, on principle.

Ebz, initially I reacted negatively to the statement:

how many white people have forgotten the privilege of just being white?

but, it seems you recanted this by saying

Well a blanket statements can't apply everywhere anyways.

Which is a sentiment I certainly agree with.  I'm not going to agree with you, most likely, on all the reparations issues - for several reasons - but this is a whole discussion.  Instead, I'd rather just say that I strongly agree with you when you say:

Slavery can't be justified.

Indeed.  Slavery is never justifiable - my libertarian outlook views slavery as one of the worst possible transgressions in social interaction - it is the ultimate invocation of authoritarian power.  Mandatory taxes, mandatory military service - these are bad too - but they pale in comparison to slavery which is mandatory subservience in all regards.  I feel that all people are the ultimate owners of their own bodies and their own lives - therefore there is no room for slavery in a just world.  One person cannot own another.  

(takes break, catches breath)

We all own ourselves and ourselves only without inherent authority over, or subservience under, anybody else; and this statement I claim as an intrinsic human right that leads to a rational morality.  The concepts of freedom and slavery are completely antithetical (obvious, right?).  Therefore, there is no way that a person can be genuinely interested in the promotion of freedom and individual rights while somehow rationalizing slavery as acceptable under certain circumstances.  This would be blatantly contradictory and hypocritical.  The only answer, then, that makes any sense is just what you say: "Slavery can't be justified".

This race topic sure does rile everybody up good, doesn't it?  :wink:

[EbzDirtyHeathen]

About the color-blind thing ... I don't know.  Its interesting.  Here's something that happened to me that made me think about this issue: 10 years ago I was staying in Silver Springs Maryland while working on an account in D.C. (the downtown hotels were all full 'cause of cherry blossom week - really?  Yes, really.  This place advertised "close to the Metro" - a brisk 25 minute walk apparently qualifies as "close").  I went to dinner at a local bar/restaurant type place, and after a while I just suddenly realized that I was the only white person in the place - everybody else was black.  This didn't disturb or concern me in any way - but it was strange to me that after being there for an hour or so it suddenly registered.  Would I have noticed sooner if I was black, and everyone else was white?  I don't know.  Then again, why did I suddenly notice?  Why didn't I notice right away?  I guess I'm just not used to noticing.  I'm not used to "seeing" races, or thinking about other people's race, or being highly aware of the race of people around me.  But - I did notice after a time.  So - am I colorblind?  Clearly not.  But, I'm also not highly attuned to other people's racial makeup.  Weird?  I relate this simply as a curious experience.  I grew up in an integrated school with lots of kids of different races - white, black, Indian (as in, from India, not Native American), and Asian.  If you're exposed to other people of different races when you're young, do you just not care so much what other people's race is?  Maybe.  (shrugs)

The young lady tending bar and filling up my beer glass was really, really cute.  This I noticed right away.  So, I'm clearly not genderblind.  Maybe she distracted me from the other patrons?  I thought we exchanged more than one warm smile, maybe even a flirtatious glance or two.  Or I was deluded and she was just being nice.  Or, she wasn't colorblind either, and was just amused by the one white guy in the place.  Who knows?  Maybe she was irresistibly attracted to my raw animal magnetism - yeah, that was probably it!  :roll:  

She sure was cute though - no scandal btw - I was single in '97.  :wink:

See.....given your experience well for me it seems normal if I'm in a room and there's mostly black people....I don't think there are sure a lot of black people in here or hmmmm everyone is pretty much black but almost immediately if I were somewhere and it was all or mostly black people there I'd notice hmmm so there are 2 black people here like I immediately count the black people lol......like in my junior high there was no joke 1 and only 1 white person in my school.....a white boy. And in my elementary you had a handful of mixed kids just like in my junior high. I didn't get around many Latinos, or Asians or more white kids until high school and even then blacks were anywhere between 60-70% depending on the school year. For me I noticed more when I got around a good amount of non--black people.

[EbzDirtyHeathen]

On a more serious note, I've reviewed some parts of this lengthy thread, but I wanted to pull out:

My 2cts. People should be judged on their acts, not on skin colour, religion, sex or whatever. For that reason I'm against any kind of discrimination (both negative and possitive). Historical mistakes, like slavery and the holocaust, should never be forgotten. On the other hand, how much are "we" to blame on what our forefathers did? Does for example a german child that is born today still has to feel guilty of what happened 3-4 generations ago? That doesn't seem right to me. Another problem that I see is that many people believe that the decendents of the former victims have more moral rights than other people. Since WW-II until now, no german politician would even dare to criticise Israel. This is rather silly, because what ever happens nowadays in Israel is not related to the holocaust.

I wish to congratulate you, Tom62, for offering up such a rational position.  I agree with this wholeheartedly.  To say otherwise is to say the child is responsible for the 'sins' of the parent.  And that idea I reject, entirely, on principle.

Ebz, initially I reacted negatively to the statement:

how many white people have forgotten the privilege of just being white?

but, it seems you recanted this by saying

Well a blanket statements can't apply everywhere anyways.

Which is a sentiment I certainly agree with.  I'm not going to agree with you, most likely, on all the reparations issues - for several reasons - but this is a whole discussion.  Instead, I'd rather just say that I strongly agree with you when you say:

Slavery can't be justified.

Indeed.  Slavery is never justifiable - my libertarian outlook views slavery as one of the worst possible transgressions in social interaction - it is the ultimate invocation of authoritarian power.  Mandatory taxes, mandatory military service - these are bad too - but they pale in comparison to slavery which is mandatory subservience in all regards.  I feel that all people are the ultimate owners of their own bodies and their own lives - therefore there is no room for slavery in a just world.  One person cannot own another.  

(takes break, catches breath)

We all own ourselves and ourselves only without inherent authority over, or subservience under, anybody else; and this statement I claim as an intrinsic human right that leads to a rational morality.  The concepts of freedom and slavery are completely antithetical (obvious, right?).  Therefore, there is no way that a person can be genuinely interested in the promotion of freedom and individual rights while somehow rationalizing slavery as acceptable under certain circumstances.  This would be blatantly contradictory and hypocritical.  The only answer, then, that makes any sense is just what you say: "Slavery can't be justified".

This race topic sure does rile everybody up good, doesn't it?  :wink:

I don't recant at all saying how many white people have forgotten the privilege of just being white at all......I didn't include all but I meant saying many .....I worded that right but I really meant my question and I wasn't being rhetorical either. You think there isn't any?

I lean libertarian also................. I think that's common with Atheists I dunno.....most of my atheist friends to too *shrugs*. No we probably won't agree on reparations but I get into it with as many black people as white people and asians so ...... we're going on about that RIGHT NOW in an African American Studies class I currently take.


What do you mean when you say there is no way that a person can be genuinely interested in the promotion of freedom and individual rights while somehow rationalizing slavery as acceptable under certain circumstances? Because I'm -_o whhhhaaaatttt right now.


Racism talk and Slavery talk riles up everyone.....it's so easy on the internet but try getting people into it IRL. People get scared or skirt around trying to talk about it let alone discussing it in-depth.