God Debate Is Worthless

[Stevil]

It's legal in NZ, I'm all for it. If people want to pay for sex and others want to make money off it then why not.
I've heard it is safer than casual one night stands.

It's not my cup of tea, but I think others can have/do it if they want.

Hmmmm, that's not entirely true. On the face of it, it seems harmless. Here in the Netherlands it's also legal.
But recent research has shown that many prostitutes come from Eastern Europe, they are actually forced to do the job.
Back there, different jobs were promised, like waitress. But when they arive here, the situation is quite different.
The language barriere, fear of getting kicked out of the country (they are illegal) or even worse; getting killed if they go to the police, forces them to continue their work.

There's a whole woman trade behind this system.

Hi iSok, so it's not prostitution that is the problem it is human trafficing, kidnapping, slavery. A well policed industry wouldn't have these issues

[Sweetdeath]

The whole issue with prositution is that is just really devalues women. This isn't trading work on a car or sweeping a room for money. This is a person, a human being, one's whole self.

I don't care what you've heard, no one who has ever been a stripper or prostitue feels like a human being. They feel like an object, property.  And I hate the arguement that "there isn't any other choice." There is ALWAYS another choice. We have many programs to help people get back on their feet.  It should never be an option.

That's why so many of these people are on heroine or meth.  Many, any of these poor women were most likely victims of rape or child abuse.  We need to encourage these women, human beings to get help, not support their habit.

I apologize for sounding preachy, but this topic hits very close to home.  These women are someone's mother or daughter...

[Twentythree]

The whole issue with prositution is that is just really devalues women. This isn't trading work on a car or sweeping a room for money. This is a person, a human being, one's whole self.

I don't care what you've heard, no one who has ever been a stripper or prostitue feels like a human being. They feel like an object, property.  And I hate the arguement that "there isn't any other choice." There is ALWAYS another choice. We have many programs to help people get back on their feet.  It should never be an option.

That's why so many of these people are on heroine or meth.  Many, any of these poor women were most likely victims of rape or child abuse.  We need to encourage these women, human beings to get help, not support their habit.

I apologize for sounding preachy, but this topic hits very close to home.  These women are someone's mother or daughter...

I feel like the whole idea of legalized prostitution is a double edged sword. On one hand I feel like people should be free to do whatever they choose as long as it does not harm anyone or infringe on their inalienable human rights. Legalization of drugs and prostitution would do this only to the degree that it could be regulated. But, regulations in any industry mean less freedom in that industry. Regulations typically mean higher insurance and start up costs for anyone wanting to get into the business which would corporatize these industries. Can you imagine the coca-cola of prostitution, a giant multinational conglomerate, cutting prices and maximizing profits. It won't be long before people in the sex trade become products. Anyone with their own small start up would be bought up and women and men would be put into classes depending on marketable desirability. This would allow corporations to fully  control the perception of attractiveness and the virtues of sexual gratification. When making any of these arguments you always have to be able to fast forward the tape and fully conceptualize what the sex industry would look like.

Don't discount men, boys and children as part of the sex trade either it's not just women who are being used. If prostitution is legalized a market will arise for every strange fantasy fetish and preference out there. It could be very liberating and terrifying at the same time.


Somewhere in the world is a woman, she has 5 children to feed, she is poor and desperate and fears for the life of her kids. Her only hope is prostitution but she has no means nor the ability to prostitute herself. She pleads with her husband night after night, she tells him that they are on the verge of losing their land to tax collectors and their children to hunger. This man then, perhaps even against his better judgment decides to seek employment as a driver. This driver is responsible for getting prostitutes to their clients safely and on time. He cares for each one of the girls deeply and would do anything to protect them from harm. In all ways this man is virtuous except for the fact that it is the sex trade that keeps him employed and gives his children hope for a brighter future. Does it make sense to throw him in jail dooming his family to poverty and death? If prostitution is made illegal and his income evaporates and his children die, who is responsible for that?

I do not expect or hope for any moral judgment on this little narrative I simply write it to illustrate that morality and concepts of right and wrong exist only as a means for personal justification of behavior and cannot be extrapolated to include all people everywhere. Morality is context based and can be interoperated in vastly different ways depending on how you look at it.

[The Magic Pudding]

When making any of these arguments you always have to be able to fast forward the tape and fully conceptualize what the sex industry would look like.

Don't discount men, boys and children as part of the sex trade either it's not just women who are being used. If prostitution is legalized a market will arise for every strange fantasy fetish and preference out there. It could be very liberating and terrifying at the same time.

You really don't have to conceptualize anything that doesn't already exist, the experiment has been done, civilised countries have gone down the legalisation path and have found it an improvement.  So strange fetishes aren't catered for when everything is illegal and underground?  I agree the whole business is ugly and horrible, but I can't see how hiding it makes it any less so.

I have no direct experience of the sex industry, I have heard female representatives being interviewed over the years.  It seems legalisation benefits women's health safety and security.  Pimps criminals and corrupt police do lose a bit of income.  Anyway here's a link to a sex worker organisation, http://www.scarletalliance.org.au

[Tank]

I would think the issue of prostitution would be worthy of its own thread?
Probably better than derailing this thread, hint, hint

[Stevil]

The whole issue with prositution is that is just really devalues women. These women are someone's mother or daughter...

Let's say that Pam Corkery http://tvnz.co.nz/close-up/pam-corkery-s-new-venture-3706926 gets her way and open's up a successful brothel for women, yup man whores to service women's needs, for a price of course.

Am I then to look at my dad as being degraded because he is a man, and now there are man whores in Auckland. This is so silly. Just because women are providing sexual services, what does this have to do with my view of my mum?

I actually respect the sex workers. they are getting good money for easy "work", it's the customer's that I have a degraded view of. Paying for sex because they are so desperate, so horney that they have to fork out good money.

Actually, its a little sad and they get my sympathy. I'm lucky, I have a wonderful wife. If I was still single and struggle to gain affections of a potential sex partner, there is no telling what might happen. I feel fortunate that I haven't found myself in that position. i am not one to judge others for copiing with what life has dealt them.

[Too Few Lions]

Now that I've hit my 50 posts, I can try and help steer the thread away from prostitution and back to the original point, which is a good one. Belief in religion(s) can and have been be eroded from two sides. Science can show us that it's very unlikely that there is a deity (or deities) behind the cosmos, and archaeologists, historians and mythologists can show us that particular religious books are historically flawed and contain myths and not records of actual historical events. I think the two make quite a powerful pincer movement!

[Sweetdeath]

I do apologize for the off topicness. 

What really annoys me about the God debate is that whenever I bring up science, it gets negated by "because the bible says so."

I even say, well, back in ancient Greece when everyone thought Poisiden made hurricanes and ships crash. Well, we know better now, don't we?

When everyone thought the Greek gods killed people for not praying or sacrificing hard enough.  It's all so ridiculous. If I told someone today that I prayed to Zeus, they'd laugh in my face. But why? You pray to an invisible being who's existence cannot be proven either.  Prayer  is useless.

That is another thing. If I pray for icecream and my girlfriend takes me to baskin robbins on a whim, do you really think it was divine intervention? Oh wait, I forgot, we can't pray for selfish things. I guess thosr parents who pray for their loved ones not to die in surgery aren't praying hard enough.

Thrte is no evidence at all that prayer really works.  I think the best example is the biblical myth of Job.   Anyone familiar  with it?  (looking for link.if not.)

[Too Few Lions]

When everyone thought the Greek gods killed people for not praying or sacrificing hard enough.  It's all so ridiculous. If I told someone today that I prayed to Zeus, they'd laugh in my face. But why? You pray to an invisible being who's existence cannot be proven either.  Prayer  is useless.

If you told me you believe in Zeus I wouldn't laugh in your face, I consider him a far more interesting deity than Yahweh, Allah or the Christian god. It's slightly off tangent, but the Hellenists in Greece have had to fight long and hard against the Orthodox Church and the Greek government (including taking them to the European Court of Human Rights) in order to be able to openly worship the Olympian gods. Up until very recently (like the last few years) it was a criminal offence to openly worship Zeus in Greece! 

[xSilverPhinx]

When everyone thought the Greek gods killed people for not praying or sacrificing hard enough.  It's all so ridiculous. If I told someone today that I prayed to Zeus, they'd laugh in my face. But why? You pray to an invisible being who's existence cannot be proven either.  Prayer  is useless.

If you told me you believe in Zeus I wouldn't laugh in your face, I consider him a far more interesting deity than Yahweh, Allah or the Christian god. It's slightly off tangent, but the Hellenists in Greece have had to fight long and hard against the Orthodox Church and the Greek government (including taking them to the European Court of Human Rights) in order to be able to openly worship the Olympian gods. Up until very recently (like the last few years) it was a criminal offence to openly worship Zeus in Greece! 

Really?!

That's a weird story. Well, I guess they should be allowed to preserve it? *shrug*

Thrte is no evidence at all that prayer really works.  I think the best example is the biblical myth of Job.   Anyone familiar  with it?  (looking for link.if not.)

Prayer is an effective way of confirming already held beliefs (confirmation bias and expectations). The way some frame it, anything that happens is the same as any prayer being answered. For instance, when the range of possible answers is 'yes', 'no' or 'wait', that just about covers everything, doesn't it? You 'wait' until you get a 'yes' or a 'no' answer in whatever form you believe is an answer.

There's one study done (by Yale or Stanford, I think) in which people recovering from heart surgery that were prayed for actually did worse than the control group who were not being prayed for.

[Sweetdeath]

Hah, I love Zeus! At least he has the brass to say and know he's a dick. I think Greek gods ate way more relatible than any made up God(s).

Besides, Greek gods gave us Ghirardelli chocolates

[Too Few Lions]

plus they have Dionysus, who can't like a deity whose worship involved drunken revelry, theatre and dancing, and even orgies?

I quite like the fact that due to the human rights act and freedom of worship in modern Europe, Christians have to accept that the worship of deities such as Zeus, Dionysus and Athene have the same legal standing as their own religion/god, despite the Church historically persecuting the followers of the Olympian gods and branding these deities as false gods and even devils.

[Twentythree]

The idea that someone can fully believe anything without factual evidence baffles me. I mean I'm of the type that although I believe in the moon landing I can at least see how someone could rationalize it being fake. I just find it weird that in a world that is constantly changing people with a religious mind don't even try to see the faulty logic that is inherent in stating anything with absolute certainty. I mean, how many gods existed, between the dawn of consciousness and now, and of those gods how many have been specifically disproved by scientific discovery. As each physically intervening god is disproved god becomes more and more abstract. With only an abstract idea of something how can you say definitively that such thing, is real, and that your interpretation is correct?

How can we know for sure that the way you see blue is the same way I see blue. It could all be different interpretations of the same electrochemical signals...right?

[The Black Jester]

How can we know for sure that the way you see blue is the same way I see blue. It could all be different interpretations of the same electrochemical signals...right?

Subtle differences in the structures of brain regions, in addition to genetic variations in cone types, may make this inevitable.  In fact, there is a genetic mutation in some women that produces 4 cone types, rather than the more traditional 3 - and some people have only two cone types.  This virtually guarantees differences in how we see color in general.  Structural differences in visual processing areas resulting from individual variation may even result in differences in how the same wavelength is perceived by two people with identical cone morphology.

[Sweetdeath]

It baffles me when any Christian would label someone a devil worshipper for having a different view from theirs.