My little brother

[McQ]

My opinion is that you make sure that you have a grasp of the science before trying to explain it to your brother or anyone else. Make certain that you can find references for facts, theories, hypotheses, and make certain they're good, solid references.

The are few things more painful to my thinking than someone who spouts off nonsense or bad science during these types of conversations. Understand that your brother won't grasp all of this stuff, or even much of it. You need to be in a position of solid core competencies in these subjects and then also have the ability to teach it to others. Be careful how you proceed, because if you teach him incorrectly, you could just screw him up down the road.

That said, the first thing that popped into my mind when you began your explanation in your post is that you need to totally distinguish between theories of Big Bang and Evolution. They are not related. First mistake most people make when trying to argue with Creationists (or IDers) is to fall into the trap of arguing both things together. The Creationists always bring them up together because they can't separate them properly (basically because they know jack shit about either one).

So good luck, and again, make sure you're on solid ground with this stuff before you try and teach it. But kudos for even trying to approach this sticky subject!

[The Black Jester]

My opinion is that you make sure that you have a grasp of the science before trying to explain it to your brother or anyone else. Make certain that you can find references for facts, theories, hypotheses, and make certain they're good, solid references.

The are few things more painful to my thinking than someone who spouts off nonsense or bad science during these types of conversations. Understand that your brother won't grasp all of this stuff, or even much of it. You need to be in a position of solid core competencies in these subjects and then also have the ability to teach it to others. Be careful how you proceed, because if you teach him incorrectly, you could just screw him up down the road.

That said, the first thing that popped into my mind when you began your explanation in your post is that you need to totally distinguish between theories of Big Bang and Evolution. They are not related. First mistake most people make when trying to argue with Creationists (or IDers) is to fall into the trap of arguing both things together. The Creationists always bring them up together because they can't separate them properly (basically because they no jack shit about either one).

So good luck, and again, make sure you're on solid ground with this stuff before you try and teach it. But kudos for even trying to approach this sticky subject!

Um...ditto?  McQ's got the right tack on this.

I'm moved by the care and seriousness with which you take your responsibility as a brother.  Reminds me of my relationship with my brother.

[thedport]

My opinion is that you make sure that you have a grasp of the science before trying to explain it to your brother or anyone else. Make certain that you can find references for facts, theories, hypotheses, and make certain they're good, solid references.

The are few things more painful to my thinking than someone who spouts off nonsense or bad science during these types of conversations. Understand that your brother won't grasp all of this stuff, or even much of it. You need to be in a position of solid core competencies in these subjects and then also have the ability to teach it to others. Be careful how you proceed, because if you teach him incorrectly, you could just screw him up down the road.

That said, the first thing that popped into my mind when you began your explanation in your post is that you need to totally distinguish between theories of Big Bang and Evolution. They are not related. First mistake most people make when trying to argue with Creationists (or IDers) is to fall into the trap of arguing both things together. The Creationists always bring them up together because they can't separate them properly (basically because they no jack shit about either one).

So good luck, and again, make sure you're on solid ground with this stuff before you try and teach it. But kudos for even trying to approach this sticky subject!

Ya I realize they are seperate, It was two different times my brother asked me these questions. I guesse the story does look like one time one question sorry. I was trying to squish a long story into a shorter post. I do appreciatte all of the support and advice. I think I am going to take a swiss aproach to this for a while at least and be a nuetral party. I am concerned right now with his education over his spiratual beleifs, I was raised the same way he is being raised and figured out the truth. Hopefully he will figure it out a little sooner seeing as how he has me.

[PapistItalian16]

I think its great that you respect your parents as much as you do, and I think it is also very great that you are setting that example for him. You seem to be a very good role model for your brother.

But I also dont feel that it is good to try and influence him too much on athiesm. Let him find his own way, you know? It's alright to tell him what you beleive about certain things, but dont go and bash religion completely (not that you have yet or anything ).

Being a younger brother myself, I find it very hard to not try and act like my older brother. You seem like a very good role model for him, but there is a difference in acting one way because of your role model and beleiving something just because that someone else beleives it.(I know, the pot calling the kettle black right? hahaha) Anyways, let him find truth, whether it be whats on the science channel or what's in The Bible. As long as he's happy right? 

Just my two cents'  hope I didnt offend.   

[thedport]

I think its great that you respect your parents as much as you do, and I think it is also very great that you are setting that example for him. You seem to be a very good role model for your brother.

But I also dont feel that it is good to try and influence him too much on athiesm. Let him find his own way, you know? It's alright to tell him what you beleive about certain things, but dont go and bash religion completely (not that you have yet or anything ).

Being a younger brother myself, I find it very hard to not try and act like my older brother. You seem like a very good role model for him, but there is a difference in acting one way because of your role model and beleiving something just because that someone else beleives it.(I know, the pot calling the kettle black right? hahaha) Anyways, let him find truth, whether it be whats on the science channel or what's in The Bible. As long as he's happy right? 

Just my two cents'  hope I didnt offend.   

No offense taken what so ever. I am probably one of the hardest people to offend you may meet, I am just to easy going. And I don't know where I get it from both of my parents have really short tempers. Maybe I decided I didn't want that to be me and went against the grain on that front. LOL, and I especially don't get upset with theist's, mainly because I was one for a very long time and understand the issue of faith. Thank you for you imput also. 

[Tank]

I think its great that you respect your parents as much as you do, and I think it is also very great that you are setting that example for him. You seem to be a very good role model for your brother.

But I also dont feel that it is good to try and influence him too much on athiesm theism. Let him find his own way, you know? It's alright to tell him what you beleive about certain things, but dont go and bash religion completely (not that you have yet or anything ).

Being a younger brother myself, I find it very hard to not try and act like my older brother. You seem like a very good role model for him, but there is a difference in acting one way because of your role model and beleiving something just because that someone else beleives it.(I know, the pot calling the kettle black right? hahaha) Anyways, let him find truth, whether it be whats on the science channel or what's in The Bible. As long as he's happy right? 

Just my two cents'  hope I didnt offend.   

Would you give the same advice (that I underlined and inverted) to the Father and Mother? If not then why not? Because the parents are very much influencing the child in respect to his world view. They are in effect using their position of authority to indoctrinate their child. Is that reasonable and fair? If so why?

[Stevil]

But I also dont feel that it is good to try and influence him too much on athiesm.

Try not to confuse an understanding on the Big Bang theory and an understanding on the Theory of Evolution with Atheism.
There is no scripture or guide book to Atheism which says thou shalt believe in evolution or Big bang.

Atheism isn't really much of an 'ism and isn't a belief, it's simply a lack of belief in god/s.

Scientists and Cosmologists have developed a detailed and deep theory with regards to Big Bang, they do this by making observations, devising theories and models based on those observations and testing them. It doesn't have anything to do with god beliefs or lack of beliefs in god. It is simply a way of understanding and modelling the Universe within which we can observe.
If any of the god theories are actually the truth then the scientific method will remain consistant with that. It is only beliefs that are not the truth that should worry about scientific discoveries and if they are not the truth then it is better we find out sooner than later. The thing is that religion tends to deal in immaterial things like the soul, morals, God (being an immaterial, eternal being) it is rare that these things cross over into the world of material nature (temporal, spacial, substance). When claims of cross over do occur then they better be prepared for scientific methods of discovery, either that or be well guarded by the proponents of theology.

[PapistItalian16]

I think its great that you respect your parents as much as you do, and I think it is also very great that you are setting that example for him. You seem to be a very good role model for your brother.

But I also dont feel that it is good to try and influence him too much on athiesm theism. Let him find his own way, you know? It's alright to tell him what you beleive about certain things, but dont go and bash religion completely (not that you have yet or anything ).

Being a younger brother myself, I find it very hard to not try and act like my older brother. You seem like a very good role model for him, but there is a difference in acting one way because of your role model and beleiving something just because that someone else beleives it.(I know, the pot calling the kettle black right? hahaha) Anyways, let him find truth, whether it be whats on the science channel or what's in The Bible. As long as he's happy right? 

Just my two cents'  hope I didnt offend.   

Would you give the same advice (that I underlined and inverted) to the Father and Mother? If not then why not? Because the parents are very much influencing the child in respect to his world view. They are in effect using their position of authority to indoctrinate their child. Is that reasonable and fair? If so why?

Faith cannot and should not be forced. I dont feel that parents should "use their position of authority to indoctrinate their child'. That's not right. But there is a difference between taking a child to church with the parents and "forcing" faith on him. I feel that it is right for a parent to want to share their beleifs with their child. I know if I had a kid, I'd want him to feel as passionate about God and the church as I do. Id want them to feel the love that I have felt.

[Tank]

I think its great that you respect your parents as much as you do, and I think it is also very great that you are setting that example for him. You seem to be a very good role model for your brother.

But I also dont feel that it is good to try and influence him too much on athiesm theism. Let him find his own way, you know? It's alright to tell him what you beleive about certain things, but dont go and bash religion completely (not that you have yet or anything ).

Being a younger brother myself, I find it very hard to not try and act like my older brother. You seem like a very good role model for him, but there is a difference in acting one way because of your role model and beleiving something just because that someone else beleives it.(I know, the pot calling the kettle black right? hahaha) Anyways, let him find truth, whether it be whats on the science channel or what's in The Bible. As long as he's happy right? 

Just my two cents'  hope I didnt offend.   

Would you give the same advice (that I underlined and inverted) to the Father and Mother? If not then why not? Because the parents are very much influencing the child in respect to his world view. They are in effect using their position of authority to indoctrinate their child. Is that reasonable and fair? If so why?

Faith cannot and should not be forced. I dont feel that parents should "use their position of authority to indoctrinate their child'. That's not right. But there is a difference between taking a child to church with the parents and "forcing" faith on him. I feel that it is right for a parent to want to share their beleifs with their child. I know if I had a kid, I'd want him to feel as passionate about God and the church as I do. Id want them to feel the love that I have felt.

That's quite a good answer. Can the child stay at home on Sunday? If not what choice does he have?

As Stevil (?) pointed out. The Theory of Evolution and those regarding the Big Bang do not address the existance or not of God. The chap who slaughtered the creationists at the Dover trial was a Catholic and teaches Evolution without any problem at all. In addition the Catholic church jumped on the proposition of the Big Bang very early on, as it gave the impression that there had to be a creator to 'light the fuse' as it were.

Thus there is no reason whatsoever that thedport should not explain these theories with his brother is there?

[PapistItalian16]

That's quite a good answer. Can the child stay at home on Sunday? If not what choice does he have?

Thanks!

As Stevil (?) pointed out. The Theory of Evolution and those regarding the Big Bang do not address the existance or not of God. The chap who slaughtered the creationists at the Dover trial was a Catholic and teaches Evolution without any problem at all. In addition the Catholic church jumped on the proposition of the Big Bang very early on, as it gave the impression that there had to be a creator to 'light the fuse' as it were.

Thus there is no reason whatsoever that thedport should not explain these theories with his brother is there?

Stevil did make a good point, and I shall adress that in a second.

But to answer your question: I think what I meant was mis understood, I never said that thedport shouldnt descuss these things with his brother. I just said that he shouldnt try and influence him too much on the idea of "there is no God" or "the Church and the Bible are wrong". I think its okay for him to tell his brother what he believes(or lack thereof) but I dont think he should "tell his brother what to beleive", so to speak. I think he should let him find his own way, and if his brother decides to beleive in God, well then God bless him, and if he doesnt, well then God bless him anyway.

Just my opinion.

Try not to confuse an understanding on the Big Bang theory and an understanding on the Theory of Evolution with Atheism.
There is no scripture or guide book to Atheism which says thou shalt believe in evolution or Big bang.

Atheism isn't really much of an 'ism and isn't a belief, it's simply a lack of belief in god/s.

Scientists and Cosmologists have developed a detailed and deep theory with regards to Big Bang, they do this by making observations, devising theories and models based on those observations and testing them. It doesn't have anything to do with god beliefs or lack of beliefs in god. It is simply a way of understanding and modelling the Universe within which we can observe.
If any of the god theories are actually the truth then the scientific method will remain consistant with that. It is only beliefs that are not the truth that should worry about scientific discoveries and if they are not the truth then it is better we find out sooner than later. The thing is that religion tends to deal in immaterial things like the soul, morals, God (being an immaterial, eternal being) it is rare that these things cross over into the world of material nature (temporal, spacial, substance). When claims of cross over do occur then they better be prepared for scientific methods of discovery, either that or be well guarded by the proponents of theology.

That's a good point.

To be quite honest with you, I do believe in the idea of evolution; I see no reason not to. Those cells that everything evolved from, well they came from something. I dont see how they could just "appear" unless there was someone to say "abra cadabra". And I also believe in the Big Bang theory as well. But someone had to be around to "flip the switch".

[AnimatedDirt]

To offer a completely unbiased view of the evolution subject you can explain that evolution or even the big bang being true doesn't mean a god couldn't exist (I grew up accepting both with the bible and never had a problem because we weren't fundamentalists) and that science takes no stance on the existence of god (explained in whatever words he is able to currently understand).  This is also least likely to get your parents upset with you.

I think this is the best advice given along with speaking to your parents about this situation.

I'm a father of two.  One is 21 and the other is 15.  From the perspective of a Christian parent, I wouldn't find it too pleasing to have the adult child going against my known wishes.  I would assume you have grown up in the same household and were able to exit the religious hold on you.  I'm not saying you can't give your brother some good scientific points to Evolution and/or the Big Bang.  As Whitney stated, Christians today are quite open to the idea of either and still believe in God/the Bible.

As one or two have mentioned, you should speak with your parents on this matter.  After all, it is their home, their child and you should respect their beliefs even if you disagree.  You are milking them once again because you're unable (or it's more adventageous for you) to meet your own needs.  To me, it would be much like a slap in the face.

Pretty soon your little brother may utter some words of, "Why do I need to go to church?  Brother says there is no god.

Now think of this totally opposite and your own future child being influenced on something you disagree with or find it to facilitate the retardation of his actual education.?

[Davin]

My youngest brother is still religious living with my religious parents. We're very close and we often talk a lot on Skype while I'm teaching him how to draw better and how to model, texture, rig, light, animate and render things in Blender. I never avoid talking about anything with my family, any of them, so when a topic comes up where either the church and/or the bible are wrong about something, I don't hold back.

If people were to listen to the conversations my family has (ignoring the laughter), they'd think we all hate eachother. The only time I abridge my speech is when my mother is present, I merely do it to avoid the irrational foul language mini-lectures. But aside from having to take some extra time to select a different word that means the same thing, nothing is held back. Of course sometimes I do intentionally use language she finds inappropriate.

[The Black Jester]

To offer a completely unbiased view of the evolution subject you can explain that evolution or even the big bang being true doesn't mean a god couldn't exist (I grew up accepting both with the bible and never had a problem because we weren't fundamentalists) and that science takes no stance on the existence of god (explained in whatever words he is able to currently understand).  This is also least likely to get your parents upset with you.

I think this is the best advice given along with speaking to your parents about this situation.

I'm a father of two.  One is 21 and the other is 15.  From the perspective of a Christian parent, I wouldn't find it too pleasing to have the adult child going against my known wishes.  I would assume you have grown up in the same household and were able to exit the religious hold on you.  I'm not saying you can't give your brother some good scientific points to Evolution and/or the Big Bang.  As Whitney stated, Christians today are quite open to the idea of either and still believe in God/the Bible.

As one or two have mentioned, you should speak with your parents on this matter.  After all, it is their home, their child and you should respect their beliefs even if you disagree.  You are milking them once again because you're unable (or it's more adventageous for you) to meet your own needs.  To me, it would be much like a slap in the face.

Pretty soon your little brother may utter some words of, "Why do I need to go to church?  Brother says there is no god.

Now think of this totally opposite and your own future child being influenced on something you disagree with or find it to facilitate the retardation of his actual education.?

I was raised by mild secular humanists in the wilds of Alaska.  The 'wilds of Alaska' part is not relevant, but here's where the 'secular humanism' bit is: I became a born-again, honest-to-god, tongue-talking, filled-with-the-holy-spirit, evangelizing Christian, due to some helpful pushes from my other, more religious relatives.  Much to the consternation of my parents.  Well, consternation is not quite right: let's say more befuddled bemusement.  My father's reaction to this was priceless.  He never insulted me or my beliefs, he never harangued me, he never belittled me.  He merely engaged me in what he liked to term 'jousts' - battles of wit regarding everything from evolution to church doctrine.  In the end, he forced me to learn so much about my positions, and his, that I decided on my own, after all, that my positions were untenable.  It was his way of 'influencing' me in the other direction, I suppose.  I did not come to his ideas out of some misguided 'respect' for his position as 'head-of-household,' I came to them because they made the most sense.  If you have to resort to authority, which is essentially force, to convince someone of your veracity, you have undermined your own position.

[AnimatedDirt]

If you have to resort to authority, which is essentially force, to convince someone of your veracity, you have undermined your own position.

If parenting to you equals leading by "authority" on all counts 24/7, 100%...so be it.  I gave my opinion and you gave yours concerning my opinion.  Thanks.

[The Black Jester]

If you have to resort to authority, which is essentially force, to convince someone of your veracity, you have undermined your own position.

If parenting to you equals leading by "authority" on all counts 24/7, 100%...so be it.  I gave my opinion and you gave yours concerning my opinion.  Thanks.

To be clear, if your child won't listen to your instructions to look both ways before crossing the street, no one will fault you for using your parental 'authority' to enforce that position.  The evidence is clearly on your side.  There is some disagreement as to whether or not the analogy carries to instructions on supernatural beliefs.  However, I was speaking merely as a child having had a quite different experience with a parent regarding world-views and belief systems, and having found it an invaluable and appreciated approach from the point of view of the child.  My father brought me around to his way of thinking without enforcing anything.  I cannot, however, speak to the desires or frustrations as a parent, as I have no children, so I will bow out of the discussion at this stage.