devils and demons etc

[JoeBobSmith]

 

[The Magic Pudding]

We create the devil by being bad, and he leads us to be bad, and if our faith were stronger he wouldn't be a problem.
In other words it's all our fault.
This should be remembered when ever it seems the very heavens are against us, it is all our fault.  

[xSilverPhinx]

Sure the devil exists, he's the entity that certain people conjure up to avoid any responsibility for their actions...

[Stevil]

The devil character is much more influential than the god character. If there were no devil, no hell, then there would be no consequences in not believing.

[Ulver]

So I was thinking if god is not strong enough to just stomp out satan or whatever then satan must be at least as strong as god.  So essentially satan must be another god.

Oh heavens, noo!  :hmm:
Hehe doesn't that sound like human kind and our shittiness is more powerful than god? HMMMM?  

Anyways i don't think i believe much of this stuff, just some thoughts really.  I wasn't sure, do muslims believe in a hell or a satan?

http://www.islamicinformationcentre.co.uk/muslims.htm

[fester30]

Satan was invented by man when it was obvious that people weren't really in love with the whole God's wrath thing.  They had to stop blaming bad things on God otherwise people would get mad at God.  We have to have a kinder, gentler God, and an evil nemesis that causes bad things that isn't as powerful as God, but God lets the nemesis do bad things to see if we really love God or if we just say we do.  Of course, the reason God is more powerful is when a person chooses sides, who is going to choose the eventual losing side?  I remember in the movie "The Devil's Advocate," when it is pointed out to the Devil that in the Bible God wins.  The Devil's reply, and I'm paraphrasing, is that particular history hasn't been written yet, that the Devil is going to write a new book.  That movie is funny at that point because Satan calls God out for being a dickhead.

*I probably should say the invention of Satan is just my hypothesis.  I don't know there's any way to go back in time to get into the minds of the people who invented Satan.

[Ulver]

Satan was invented by man when it was obvious that people weren't really in love with the whole God's wrath thing.  They had to stop blaming bad things on God otherwise people would get mad at God.  We have to have a kinder, gentler God, and an evil nemesis that causes bad things that isn't as powerful as God, but God lets the nemesis do bad things to see if we really love God or if we just say we do.  Of course, the reason God is more powerful is when a person chooses sides, who is going to choose the eventual losing side?  I remember in the movie "The Devil's Advocate," when it is pointed out to the Devil that in the Bible God wins.  The Devil's reply, and I'm paraphrasing, is that particular history hasn't been written yet, that the Devil is going to write a new book.  That movie is funny at that point because Satan calls God out for being a dickhead.

Haha, God had to do a little PR work to keep membership up

[iSok]

As I'm quite busy with uni, I'll try to post now and then.

As for the question: Do muslims believe in satan or hell?
The answer is yes and yes.

Satan, in Islam called 'Shaitaan' can be everyone, also a human being. Basically a 'shaitaan' is an evil person who's actions have a negative impact on society.
Someone who makes people feel miserable or unhappy.

In the Qur'an the story of Iblis is given, a 'djinn', Iblis decided to be a  'shaitaan'. When asked to bow for Adam, Iblis refused to do so.
Iblis replied to God that since Adam was made of clay and he was made of fire, he shouldn't bow down. Iblis found himself more important, since fire shouldn't bow down for clay.
Now the Qur'an sketches this story as an important lesson for mankind; ego or self-importance is the root of all evil.
If we take a look at world history, the main source of evil came from one human being regarding himself to be better than another.

Now the concept of Satan is used in Islam to straighten people.
'Sneezing is from God, yawning is from Satan'. (cleaning your 'pipes' and laziness)
'Satan is in your nose after a night of sleep, so clean your nasal cavity in the morning'. (desert climate, infection)
'During prayer stand close to one and other or Satan will stand between you.' (A person growing suspicious if the other is standing at a distance; 'does he think he's better than I?')

Does hell exist? I think it does.
Hell could also be a threat for mankind, some verses of the Qur'an seem to indicate this.
I watched the documentaire 'Blood Diamond's' today, I think people like Foday Sankoh make it quite reasonable and neccesary.

[curiosityandthecat]

Obligatory Christian response: God works in mysterious ways.

[DeterminedJuliet]

'Stand close to one and other or Satan will stand between you.' (A person growing suspicious if the other is standing at a distance; 'does he think he's better than I?')

I find this interesting. I live in an area where nuns still taught up until recently. At school dances, if a boy and a girl were getting a little too "close", I remember hearing stories of nuns coming up to them and saying "make room for Jesus!" and making them dance at arm's length.

[curiosityandthecat]

'Stand close to one and other or Satan will stand between you.' (A person growing suspicious if the other is standing at a distance; 'does he think he's better than I?')

I find this interesting. I live in an area where nuns still taught up until recently. At school dances, if a boy and a girl were getting a little too "close", I remember hearing stories of nuns coming up to them and saying "make room for Jesus!" and making them dance at arm's length.

"Remember, adolescent boys and girls: you're not safe unless there's a magical middle-aged man pressed between your bodies." Jesus is a total perv.  

[Stevil]

When asked to bow for Adam, Iblis refused to do so.

If we take a look at world history, the main source of evil came from one human being regarding himself to be better than another.

Here I see an issue which is common with many of the religious fables. There is often a contradiction as if god or god's special favourite characters are excluded from the rule. It appears to me that Adam is being held on a pedastool and that poor Iblis is being forced to express subservience to Adam. What's wrong with respecting each other as equals?

(A person growing suspicious if the other is standing at a distance; 'does he think he's better than I?')

Here we see a negative consequence of religion. People now have inner suspicions, judgement and lack of trust in others.

[iSok]

Here I see an issue which is common with many of the religious fables. There is often a contradiction as if god or god's special favourite characters are excluded from the rule. It appears to me that Adam is being held on a pedastool and that poor Iblis is being forced to express subservience to Adam. What's wrong with respecting each other as equals?

Moral of the story is that man should submit himself fully to God, and not set conditions like Iblis did, since that will lead you into error.
Iblis decided that some part of him should not follow God, out of self-importance. The Qur'an teaches that God should be the Center and
drawing some parts of the Center towards you (ego and self-importance) is a fatal mistake, since man cannot control that aspect.
It's better to submit yourself for 100% and not set any conditions than to fail and lose control of it, see again world history.

Here we see a negative consequence of religion. People now have inner suspicions, judgement and lack of trust in others.

I think we misunderstood eachother a bit.
The problem lies in the nature of man, religion on the other hand encourages man to overcome this problem.

[49:12] - "Believers, avoid being excessively suspicious, for some suspicion is a sin. Do not spy, nor backbite one another. Would any of you like to eat the flesh of his dead brother? You would surely detest it. Have fear of God. Surely God is much prone to accept repentance, is Most Compassionate."

What meant here by 'Satan' is, that during prayer people should stand close to one and other.
If they keep distance, Satan might slip in and of course a believer doesn't want that, so they stand close to one and other.
If there would be a distance between two individuals, the other might think; 'Do I smell? Am I too poor? Does he think he's better than I am?'. (Caused by Satan)
This thought comes from the nature of man, which religion is against.

[Stevil]

Here we see a negative consequence of religion. People now have inner suspicions, judgement and lack of trust in others.

I think we misunderstood eachother a bit.
The problem lies in the nature of man, religion on the other hand encourages man to overcome this problem.

I understand perfectly what you are saying iSok but I think, given even my limited understanding of human nature, that the teachings of religion inevitibly lead to the problems that I have mentioned plus many, many other problems that I haven't explicitly listed here.
If a god were truly timeless and could see into the future before its actions are carried out, it would see what the consequences are. In this way it determines the consequences (it has total control) simply by being able to make the appropriate adjustment to its actions. We could then say the problems incurred by humankind as a result of humankind's nature coupled with humankind's understanding derived from the religious scriptures simply highlight the failings of the scriptures to communicate the intended message to the intended audience in order to illicit the intended response.

I've been on this forum long enough to know what your response will be. It will be with regards to god's desire for humans to have free will and to choose their own path/destiny and that god simply creates the right environment for this to eventuate  (am I right?).

But I am coming from an atheist perspective. A perspective where I don't have a belief in god, where I don't believe any of the scriptures were written by god's word. My point is simply that human kind would not have some of the problems that we face if it were not for the religious based scriptures. e.g. People would not have inner suspicions, judgement and lack of trust in others who choose, for whatever reason, not to stand within the distance of proximity deemed appropriate that you alluded to with regards to your story.

[Asmodean]

Obligatory Christian response: God works in mysterious ways.

Apparently, he suffers from mental disorders...