Time to Go to Hell

[Byronazriel]

I don't know, I've heard the Heaven is timeless thing many times. Just because YOU believe a certain thing doesn't mean that everyone else is wrong. With so many bibles and denominations within Christianity it's hard to talk about things in generalities.

Maybe the timelessness of heaven doesn't apply to your specific branch of Christianity, but that doesn't change the fact that at least SOME Christian do believe in it.

[Asmodean]

...They also tend to believe that there is only one right way: their way. Thus, that particular "truth" has more shades than a coral reef.

[AreEl]

I don't know, I've heard the Heaven is timeless thing many times. Just because YOU believe a certain thing doesn't mean that everyone else is wrong. With so many bibles and denominations within Christianity it's hard to talk about things in generalities.

Maybe the timelessness of heaven doesn't apply to your specific branch of Christianity, but that doesn't change the fact that at least SOME Christian do believe in it.

There are a whole bunch of wierdos out there - theists and atheists alike - each with their own idea of ''Truth.''  What makes Truth true, is its reality. Truth is that which is. Wishing something true does not make it so. I am telling you what the Bible says about the temporality of heaven & hell, period. That some Christians are unknowledgeable about what the Bible says and invent foolish ideas about heaven & hell does not make their ideas biblically valid.  

...They also tend to believe that there is only one right way: their way. Thus, that particular "truth" has more shades than a coral reef.

Truth is that which is. Surely you will agree with this!  So, if you have an intellectual bent, look up for yourself what the Bible says about time. All the wording on this subject is clear and devoid of mumbo jumbo. You can either be knowledgeable about something or you can be unknowledgeable. Move beyond your ignorance on this subject and stop repeating what you've heard second hand.

[Byronazriel]

There is no true, or proper way to read the bible, no matter how capitalised it is Truth is subjective. What makes the truth true is its state of not being a lie.

If someone is wrong about something, it's still true from their point of view. How do you know that you're not the foolish one, that your interpretation is correct... or for that matter if there even is a correct interpretation of the bible!?

If the wording was clear, and devoid of mumbo jumbo about the nature of time in heaven... Then how come you haven't quoted it? You're the one making a claim, we shouldn't have to be the ones to research it. I know I'm not going to.

[AreEl]

There is no true, or proper way to read the bible, no matter how capitalised it is Truth is subjective.

There is a proper way to read the Bible: open it, read it and understand it at face value. The same way you would read any book. Truth is never subjective; if it were, your statement ''Truth is subjective'' would be both ''false and true''. In other words: nonsense.

What makes the truth true is its state of not being a lie.

Correct. Truth is that which is. Lie is that which is not. This is an axiom that applies to everything.

If someone is wrong about something, it's still true from their point of view.

If someone is wrong about something, they are simply wrong and are believing a lie. Believing a lie does not make the lie true.

How do you know that you're not the foolish one, that your interpretation is correct... or for that matter if there even is a correct interpretation of the bible!?

This question is beyond the scope of the discussion. We were talking about what the Bible says about heaven and hell, period. Correct interpretation of the Bible is the same as any other book: literal/face value. This ''Normal'' method (as its name implies!) gives matter-of-fact/common-sense interpretations of what is read. Allegorical or Mystical methods lead to foolishness and bizarre notions. Don't believe me? try reading a newspaper using the Mystical method of interpretation...

If the wording was clear, and devoid of mumbo jumbo about the nature of time in heaven... Then how come you haven't quoted it? You're the one making a claim, we shouldn't have to be the ones to research it. I know I'm not going to.

I don't quote the Bible because most atheists (like most Christians!) just don't care to see what is really there. You would rather continue believing what you think to be true. I'm fine with that. For those who are interested about what the Bible really says about temporality, I gave a few references in an earlier post.

I consider this discussion closed. Here is a summary my various posts:

The Bible doesn't say that heaven and hell are atemporal (without time). If you - theist or atheist - think this is what the Bible says, you are in error. The Bible says that Heaven is eternal, that hell is a created place and will be eternal.  Your opinion as to the Bible's truth or falsehood are irrelevant here: my goal has always been to tell you what the Bible really says about these two places, period.

[Asmodean]

Truth is that which is. Surely you will agree with this!

The right truth is the last one left standing. Even if it is flawed, that fact becomes irrelevant after a certain point.

If you are talking about objective truth on a massive scale, that's a different matter, but especially in cases of multiple choice problems, truth is relative to the observer.

So, if you have an intellectual bent, look up for yourself what the Bible says about time.

Why..? This looks directed at me, but I'm not even IN the time vs. Bible debate - not my area of interest.

All the wording on this subject is clear and devoid of mumbo jumbo. You can either be knowledgeable about something or you can be unknowledgeable.

Uh...

You are either lacking knowledge about something or have a certain degree of said knowledge, yes. The way you put it, however, makes a very black and white statement with which I disagree.

Move beyond your ignorance on this subject and stop repeating what you've heard second hand.

Again, why are you directing that at me? If you wish to contest the statement I have made, I will happily defend it and defend it well, even if in a way largely subjective to self. If you call me ignorant on the subject, please provide relevant quotes to substantiate.

[Byronazriel]

There is a proper way to read the Bible: open it, read it and understand it at face value. The same way you would read any book. Truth is never subjective; if it were, your statement ''Truth is subjective'' would be both ''false and true''. In other words: nonsense.

I say that what I say is true, you say it is not, therefore it is both true and false. Depending on how you look at it, which reinforces my notion that truth is subjective. Also the bible cannot be taken entirely literally, and be the truth at the same time. It has too many contradictions for that, both with itself and with reality.

Correct. Truth is that which is. Lie is that which is not. This is an axiom that applies to everything.

Well really the opposite of true is false, which doesn't necesitate deception.

If someone is wrong about something, they are simply wrong and are believing a lie. Believing a lie does not make the lie true.

Lying is an intentional deception, there are many different definitions of truth. Truth first and foremost is based on that which is real. However, reality may very well be subjective as well! What's true for one person can be false for another.

For example my birthday is in september, this is NOT true for people born in months that are not september.

Don't believe me? try reading a newspaper using the Mystical method of interpretation...

Newspapers are no where near as complex or inconsistant as a bible.

I don't quote the Bible because most atheists (like most Christians!) just don't care to see what is really there. You would rather continue believing what you think to be true. I'm fine with that. For those who are interested about what the Bible really says about temporality, I gave a few references in an earlier post.

A: I am not an atheist, or a Christian. B: You make direct claims about the bible, unless you back that up with evidence I'm just going to assume you're lying or are mistaken.

[fester30]

Fester,

heaven isn't atemporal. This can be deduced from what the Bible says, period.  That ''some Christians'' may believe in atemporality - or other bizarre notions - just tells me that their biblical literacy lacking.

As for talking ''to a thousand different preachers and get a thousand different [explanations about what the Bible says]'' this is an exaggeration but contains a kernel of truth. The best way around this foolishness is to read the book yourself and see what it says. No one will serve you better than yourself.

You can't tell me for sure anything about God or heaven because there is no way you can know for sure your interpretation of the Bible is superior to anyone else's.  You're a Christian, and you're telling me that some Christians believe in "bizarre notions."  That's amazing to me because I think all of you believe in bizarre notions.  I was a Christian for 33 years, I read the Bible cover-to-cover twice, attended a Biblical seminar, took an Old Testament and New Testament class in college, read Bible commentaries that had many volumes describing each Bible verse in detail, and it never made sense to me.  

In this post, you say that you can deduce things from what the Bible says.  In another post, you say the Bible is to be understood at face value.  You can't have it both ways.  Every Christian interprets the Bible, whether they claim to or not.  They either infer hidden meaning into verses or they emphasize certain parts of the Bible while lending less emphasis to other parts, all to suit their needs.  The entire time, there isn't any evidence of the existence of God or even of Jesus, and so the argument over which Christianity is the right Christianity is sort of comical to me.  Maybe I'm wrong and I'll end up in hell, maybe not.  It's nice, however, not to be afraid of it anymore, and let that fear dictate my actions, thoughts, and self image.

[dgmort19]

AreEl, could you direct me to the relevant passages? I'd like to see whether I agree with you.