Time to Go to Hell

[dgmort19]

So I've been wondering about the alleged natures of Heaven and Hell. Maybe a theist would be able to assist me on this one. These places are supposed to be atemporal, yes? They are not subject to time. How, then, does one enter Heaven? If I die and enter Heaven, does this not create 2 heavenly states? One in which I am present, and one in which I am not? I should think so. There was a Heaven in which I was not present, and then...or, rather, there is, also, a Heaven where I am present.

Do you see the confusion?

The thing separating my house when it is devoid of me, and my house when it contains me, is time. I was out, then I was home. If there were no time in Heaven, wouldn't there only be one allowable state? Either a Heaven with me, or without me? As I am here, and not in Heaven, one might conclude that it is not possible for me to enter Heaven at all. Or is it?

[The Magic Pudding]

Creating a fiction incorporating time travel is pretty tricky, the story has to be entertaining for people to suspend disbelief.  The Borg were prevented from destroying the Earth through time travel once, why not try a few more times?  I'm willing to accept the story though because the Borg queen is kind of cool.  The biblical characters don't appeal to me, they're all a bit dated.  Timelessness in heaven may explain the delay of the second coming, Jesus set his clock but the alarm didn't go off.

[fester30]

A day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years is like a day.  Time has no meaning to God.  Whether time ellapses or not is not important, as he is all-powerful and can make alternate dimensions with physics that don't exist or make sense in our dimension.  Remember, all-powerful means anything is possible just so that the Bible makes sense even when it doesn't.

[Asmodean]

The thing separating my house when it is devoid of me, and my house when it contains me, is time.

Why can a hypothetical heaven not have some other concept of time than the linear model we use..?

[dgmort19]

Why can a hypothetical heaven not have some other concept of time than the linear model we use..?

I suppose it must, if it is to be eternal. I was just wondering, really, whether this was something for which anyone had a kind of explanation. One reason I could never be religious is that I'd never have explanations for things such as these. I'm unwilling to say, "I don't know, ask God." I should be able to explain what it is that I believe.

[Byronazriel]

Maybe it's like a schrodinger's cat kind of thing, you're both present and not present.

God is supposed to know everything, therefore it knows who is going to heaven and thus when it made heaven it had everyone who was going there in it already. I suppose the same is true for hell.

[iSok]

Why are you still interested in the concept of religion?
Don't you find it a waste of time? I don't mean to be rude, but I can find more enjoyable ways
of spending my time.
Sometimes I think people get even more interested in religion after they leave.

Not too offend you, the Qur'an calls your behaviour 'Dhulm'.

[Byronazriel]

Pondering is never a waste of time, time is a waste of pondering.

[fester30]

Why are you still interested in the concept of religion?
Don't you find it a waste of time?
Sometimes I think people get even more interested in religion after they leave.

Not too offend you, the Qur'an calls your behaviour 'Dhulm'.

Just because I'm not religious doesn't mean I'm not interested in mythology.  Learning about God or Allah or any other current deities is similar for me to learning about Jupiter/Zeus or Ra.  There is human history in religion, in that we can learn what people believed in and how that affected their cultures.  For example, we find out by learning about Islam that it was begun as a way for Muhammad to gain a following, gain power, and gather an army so he could conquer and settle old scores.  Now, Islam is used by leaders of countries and communities to control ignorant people.  It is used, for example, by the Saudi royal family to control the people of Saudi Arabia, while the princes have orgies with drugs and alcohol.  Many of the ruling class in Kuwait leave the country during Ramadan so they don't have to fast.  I have seen it personally.

If I choose to completely ignore religion just because I don't believe in a god, then I fail to learn many lessons about history.

[iSok]

Just because I'm not religious doesn't mean I'm not interested in mythology.  Learning about God or Allah or any other current deities is similar for me to learning about Jupiter/Zeus or Ra.  There is human history in religion, in that we can learn what people believed in and how that affected their cultures.  For example, we find out by learning about Islam that it was begun as a way for Muhammad to gain a following, gain power, and gather an army so he could conquer and settle old scores.  Now, Islam is used by leaders of countries and communities to control ignorant people.  It is used, for example, by the Saudi royal family to control the people of Saudi Arabia, while the princes have orgies with drugs and alcohol.  Many of the ruling class in Kuwait leave the country during Ramadan so they don't have to fast.  I have seen it personally.

If I choose to completely ignore religion just because I don't believe in a god, then I fail to learn many lessons about history.

I am curious, can you provide evidence that the Prophet of Islam was interested in gaining power? It seems you know a lot about Islam, enlighten me please.
If there is one thing that is chrystal clear Fester, is that the Prophet was sincerely convinced that he was touched by God, before his prophethood his people called him 'The Trustworthy'.

His opponents asked him to stop spreading the message (monotheism) as it was devastating for the Meccan economy based on polytheism.

By a Quraish chief:
"If you (O Muhammad) are doing all this with a view to getting wealth, we will join together to give you greater riches than any Quraysh’ite has possessed. If ambition moves you, we will make you our chief. If you desire kingship we will readily offer you that. If you are under the power of an evil spirit which seems to haunt and dominate you so that you cannot shake off its yoke, then we shall call in skilful physicians to cure you."

If the prophet was out on worldy gains, then at this moment he reached his goal. But he continued and suffered until his death.

W. Montgomery Watt in 'Muhammad at Mecca,' Oxford, 1953.
His readiness to undergo persecution for his beliefs, the high moral character of the men who believed in him and looked up to him as a leader, and the greatness of his ultimate achievement - all argue his fundamental integrity. To suppose Muhammad an impostor raises more problems that it solves. Moreover, none of the great figures of history is so poorly appreciated in the West as Muhammad.... Thus, not merely must we credit Muhammad with essential honesty and integrity of purpose, if we are to understand him at all; if we are to correct the errors we have inherited from the past, we must not forget the conclusive proof is a much stricter requirement than a show of plausibility, and in a matter such as this only to be attained with difficulty.

Maybe you should take a closer look on history
(what are your sources on the knowledge of Islam?)

[AreEl]

These places [heaven & hell] are supposed to be atemporal, yes? They are not subject to time.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that heaven is atemporal - as in ''without time'' - as nothing in the Bible suggests this. According to the Bible, heaven is God's abode(Dt 26:15); he's not alone as the ''host of heaven'' worships God there (Ne 9:6), and angels come and go (Mk 13:32), and heaven is the ultimate resting place for saints from Earth. It's a busy place.

As for hell, it's pretty much the same. But hotter.

Do you see the confusion?

The confusion comes from your initial assumption that heaven and hell are without time.

[dgmort19]

I'm not sure where you got the idea that heaven is atemporal - as in ''without time'' - as nothing in the Bible suggests this.

I see. Perhaps it is a unique individual Christian's assumption that found its way into my head during a discussion.

Just because I'm not religious doesn't mean I'm not interested in mythology. Learning about God or Allah or any other current deities is similar for me to learning about Jupiter/Zeus or Ra.

This^

The fact that people actually believe these things (as opposed to Greek mythology, for instance, which is nearly ubiquitously accepted as a collection of tall tales) makes the topic all the more interesting. A profoundly interesting psychological phenomenon.

[Byronazriel]

They may not be an expecially huge group, but greek pantheonists/Hellenists aren't exactly insignificant. One of my best friends is the community liaison to the New Cult of Artemis. (A small, as in about ten members, group based in Idaho.) She's told me about going to meetings similar in scope to decent sized conventions.

[fester30]

These places [heaven & hell] are supposed to be atemporal, yes? They are not subject to time.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that heaven is atemporal - as in ''without time'' - as nothing in the Bible suggests this. According to the Bible, heaven is God's abode(Dt 26:15); he's not alone as the ''host of heaven'' worships God there (Ne 9:6), and angels come and go (Mk 13:32), and heaven is the ultimate resting place for saints from Earth. It's a busy place.

As for hell, it's pretty much the same. But hotter.

Do you see the confusion?

The confusion comes from your initial assumption that heaven and hell are without time.

2 Peter 3:8:  But do not forget this one thing, dear friends:  With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

Some Christians will tell you this helps to explain creation, evolution, and dinosaur bones.  Some Christians will tell you this means that heaven is atemporal.  Some Christians will tell you it simply means that time holds no meaning for God; that it's only important to man.

So yes, at least to some Christians, heaven is atemporal.  This was a big part of the problem for me with going to church when I was a Christian.  You can talk to a thousand different preachers and get a thousand different stories about what everything in the Bible is trying to say.  Too confusing.  It's just so much easier to realize there's no hell to have to jump through hoops to stay out of.

[AreEl]

2 Peter 3:8:  But do not forget this one thing, dear friends:  With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

Some Christians will tell you this helps to explain creation, evolution, and dinosaur bones.  Some Christians will tell you this means that heaven is atemporal.  Some Christians will tell you it simply means that time holds no meaning for God; that it's only important to man.

So yes, at least to some Christians, heaven is atemporal.  This was a big part of the problem for me with going to church when I was a Christian.  You can talk to a thousand different preachers and get a thousand different stories about what everything in the Bible is trying to say.  Too confusing.  It's just so much easier to realize there's no hell to have to jump through hoops to stay out of.

Fester,

heaven isn't atemporal. This can be deduced from what the Bible says, period.  That ''some Christians'' may believe in atemporality - or other bizarre notions - just tells me that their biblical literacy lacking.

As for talking ''to a thousand different preachers and get a thousand different [explanations about what the Bible says]'' this is an exaggeration but contains a kernel of truth. The best way around this foolishness is to read the book yourself and see what it says. No one will serve you better than yourself.