Religious Exclamations

[ForTheLoveOfAll]

By Poseidon's salty balls, this thread has gone on longer than I thought it would.

[The Magic Pudding]

...context...

...literally ...

...subliminal messages...

...intent...

Come one now... it seems none of those well reasoned points matter much, because this here argument (for the last 6 pages) has solely been about semantics.  

There really wasn't that much argument, just some desperate attempts to interpret a mention of deity as a latent recognition of the greatness of dog.

I don't know if this happens elsewhere, but round these parts as an expression of surprise a gent may say "well bugger me"
This should not, in the absence of other "deviant" behaviour be seen as an invitation to sodomites.

[AnimatedDirt]

Is the growing length of this thread proof that swear words do have power?  

It is the question on the table which seems to have been answered 'yes' by more than one "Atheist".  

I can't remember if I ever responded but I don't use religious exclamations....it was almost not even a habit other than "oh god" and I think I have taken that one out of my vocabulary (don't remember using it recently) because 1) I reminds me of high school students 2) it doesn't make sense since I'm not trying to appeal to one

Music to my ears.  The point is NOT that an Atheist can't use these words, it's exactly the point Whitney makes in the last 12 words above.  Whether or not *you admit it, these words make an appeal, and therefore, an appeal to the power of "God"...and in most (if not all) cases, it is an appeal to the Christian/Abrahamic God.

But I also try to generally avoid swear words and only save them when I need to add emphasis in the proper context...otherwise they lose their impact (that and those who swear all the time are perceived as being less intelligent and I prefer to be viewed as intelligent)

I do the same (or attempt to anyway).

When using a religious exclamation, the atheist is merely showing his unconcern with religious niceties and a patronising attitude toward the religious.

Exclamations and knee-jerk reactions in the form of words is not in this context.  If it were simply teasing, then that MAY BE a different matter.  But these are not in teasing.  They are everyday uses of which the Atheist is not ignorant to and fully capable of ridding him/herself (as Whitney has done/is her norm) of these that DO "appeal to one." [God/god].

Ye right, and if I say "Stone the crows, the dingoes have eaten me didgeridoo" I'm literally calling for a culling of crows.
I'm not likely to have occasion to say that though.

This is not invoking God or a "god" is it now...

As for the odd atheist sending subliminal messages of faith when his curses call upon divine authority.............

In the past the first reaction of the theist has been, BLASPHEMY!.......followed closely by dire threats of fire and brimstone for one who used god's name in vain. Christian doctine now seems to be not only accommodating to this blasphemy but is contriving to brand it involuntary piety!

Which leads to the question; When the theist, confronted with a bunch of unruly kids chasing balls into his beautifully manicured broccoli patch, mutters through gritted teeth, "Jeeezus bloody christ!" and then bellows, "You kids get out of there, come on, no playing in the vegie garden."

................Is that blasphemy or is it involuntary piety?

First the answer:  Both are blasphemy.

Where the "involuntary piety" fits in, is in the fact that these words call upon a higher power of which the Atheist (specifically) has no belief in...YET cannot seem, for the most part, to rid him/herself of the deluded habit.  The interesting thing is that the Atheist has been able to separate from the religious in all other aspects, but cannot in controling one's speech?  Where is the logic, the greater intelligence, the superior notions of not being deluded or brainwashed?  If God is fake, why keep calling for Him?

So far only Whitney has shown the truest position of an Atheist on the matter.  I'm sure she also believes these are just words, but words with some implication of power beyond which she believes exists.

I would challenge that the word used in swearing doesn't matter, whether it's fuck, god or gosh. It's the intent that matters. Ever see one of those orbit gum commercials?

Words are just words. Their meanings change over time. Saying something with the intent of insulting someone or using a particular deity's name in vain doesn't. Intent remains the same.

The word "God" in the context of these curses, exclamations, will always refer to the Christian God as long as there are Christians.  Intent remains the same?  Of course it does.  This is the whole point!  "God" and "damn" haven't changed.

Words are just words.

Words hold the power of communication.

[father nicetouch]

Well, Jesus titty fucking Christ it’s my fiftieth post! God damn it Look at me! I’m going to go and make me a grilled cheese after this. (Not really that was just an exclamation.) But this is a fun thread! I can’t believe that Animateddirt and Davin went at it this far.  :yay:  that is in a figure of speech I do not want you asking me why I’m a yelling at god I do not believe is there. But any way this is fun. Has given me a good laugh! You guys discuss everything.  

[Extropian]

It would appear Hismikeness, exercising his considerable talent for dealing in gross generalities, would rather tar everyone with the same brush than expose his meagre ability to discriminate.

My post revealed the poverty of the tactic of accusing atheists of subliminal piety. It laid bare the dishonest contriving of the religious doctrine of blasphemy into a secret yearning for the sacerdotal.

Obviously the reasoning I employed was of such a level as to attract his confusion and frustration rather than a perceptive assessment of the argument therein.

Being a newbie here, I hardly expected a hearty hail-fellow-well-met welcome with bacchanalian wassail and dancing in the streets to songs of gladsome joy and hymnal melodies of devotional praise.

But to have heaped upon me the odium of semantic is beyond the pale.

Extropian

[AnimatedDirt]

Well, Jesus titty fucking Christ it’s my fiftieth post! God damn it Look at me! I’m going to go and make me a grilled cheese after this. (Not really that was just an exclamation.) But this is a fun thread! I can’t believe that Animateddirt and Davin went at it this far.  

...and yet another one places more truth to the point I'm making.

Just an exclamation?  It's the whole point of the thread.  Thanks though.

[father nicetouch]

Well, Jesus titty fucking Christ it’s my fiftieth post! God damn it Look at me! I’m going to go and make me a grilled cheese after this. (Not really that was just an exclamation.) But this is a fun thread! I can’t believe that Animateddirt and Davin went at it this far.  

So, if I hurt my finger and yelled, "Jesus Christ!" What would you call that? other than blasfemy! I know the point that you are making. That why are we yelling to a god we do not believe in. i understand where you are coming from. But you have to understand our side as well! We really do not find power in these words. I have told you why i use them. i'm not saying you are wrong. Because you make a good point. But i really do not see it as i'm really claming to a god or anything else that i might yell out.

[AnimatedDirt]

So, if I hurt my finger and yelled, "Jesus Christ!" What would you call that? other than blasfemy! I know the point that you are making. That why are we yelling to a god we do not believe in. i understand where you are coming from.

If you understand, pull yourself out of being brainwashed into thinking it means nothing.  It literally means something!

But you have to understand our side as well! We really do not find power in these words. I have told you why i use them. i'm not saying you are wrong. Because you make a good point. But i really do not see it as i'm really claming to a god or anything else that i might yell out.

You don't find power in the words, may be true.  The fact of the matter is that the words do call upon one that DOES have power...one that *you say doesn't exist.

If *you really feel this way, why are we not experiencing a change in the thinking and actions of the Atheist community?  Why are we not hearing exclamations to Unicorns, Great Spaghetti Monsters, Elves...the list is endless, yet we find only one name called upon.

Reflect back on the words posted by Whitney.  Again, her position is the truest Atheist position on this matter.  It literally is.

[Extropian]

Extropian wrote:
When using a religious exclamation, the atheist is merely showing his unconcern with religious niceties and a patronising attitude toward the religious.

Animated Dirt replies Exclamations and knee-jerk reactions in the form of words is not in this context. If it were simply teasing, then that MAY BE a different matter. But these are not in teasing. They are everyday uses of which the Atheist is not ignorant to and fully capable of ridding him/herself (as Whitney has done/is her norm) of these that DO "appeal to one." [God/god].

My admiration for Whitney has no bounds........let her praises be sung throughout the land.

I, however, am disinclined to allow you the prerogative of proclaiming upon my motives for religious exclaiming. Blasphemy is an enculturated trait not confined the the christian divinities. All theistic figures have attacted their equivalent abuse. For nigh on 2000 years the Judeochristian blasphemer has coloured the language of religion, his braggadocio frequently leading him into the most dire of consequences.

Atheism on the other hand has had a numerically worthy presence no longer than one tenth of the time occupied by christianity. The enculturation has been a powerful one and obviously will take longer to eradicate in the wretched atheist.
While I am guilty sometimes of involuntarily exclaiming with blasphemy in my life away from discussion groups, I am fully seized of the need to exclaim atheistically in discussion groups. I have led by example elsewhere in this.

But I would advise you that, religiously exclaiming or not, this atheist is profoundly indifferent to your outrage and will continue to curse as he pleases, as colourfully as he pleases, where he pleases and when he pleases. But I do admit to being choosy as to these conditions in order that as many theists as possible are brought to high dudgeon at any given time.

I am in good christian company here, with such luminaries of tolerance and loving fellowship as Geo.W.Bush, Cardinal George Pell ["Big George" to his youthful charges], Archbishop Dr.Peter Jensen and that odious octagenarian Carol Wojtyla.

So, please, I beg of you, indulge the frailties of the wretched atheist and heap not upon him any more burden than his doughty spirit can bear. Be assured most definitely he is aware that christians in their generosity of love and kindness eschewed the torture chamber, the stake, the drawing & quartering some years ago and expresses his profound gratitude that you resist heroically their re-introduction to modern society against all clamouring among your more enthusiastic bretheren.

Extropian

[AnimatedDirt]

But I would advise you that, religiously exclaiming or not, this atheist is profoundly indifferent to your outrage and will continue to curse as he pleases, as colourfully as he pleases, where he pleases and when he pleases.

I'm hardly outraged.  Simply a point of logic (or illogic) which is lost, apparently, as you seem adamant to continue in displaying your folly, in light of your world view and claims therein.

[Extropian]

But I would advise you that, religiously exclaiming or not, this atheist is profoundly indifferent to your outrage and will continue to curse as he pleases, as colourfully as he pleases, where he pleases and when he pleases.

I'm hardly outraged.  Simply a point of logic (or illogic) which is lost, apparently, as you seem adamant to continue in displaying your folly, in light of your world view and claims therein.

It is lost because your point of logic is ineffably inconsequential in the mounting struggle of atheists to elevate logic, reason and rationality to their rightfully paramount position in human intellectual activity.

Adamant I am. Though what you see as folly, I see as a recognition that the most useful purpose for the divine, the supernatural and the fantastic is a kaleidoscope of blasphemic expression.

What you witness but fail to see is the atheist contempt for your impenetrable theism. There is pejorative intent in every word of blasphemy. You suffer the delusion that an atheist would call upon the benevolent power invested in a figment of your foetid imagination. Such self-indulgent twaddle!!!

He is cursing and deriding a decrepit collection of gods, ghosts, spirits, angels and demons, utterly uncaring of your theistic "logic".

The exclamation.........JEEEEEZUZ BLOODY CHRIST!!! has never been accepted as words praising the holy trinity among any christians of my acquaintance.

Will your next contrived annoyance be the declaration that atheism is a religion? I confess to an unseemly frisson of anticipation at the prospect.

Extropian

[AnimatedDirt]

He is cursing and deriding a decrepit collection of gods, ghosts, spirits, angels and demons, utterly uncaring of your theistic "logic".

"He" is not.  Simply knowing the origin of the exclamations would suffice to de-credit the above.

The exclamation.........JEEEEEZUZ BLOODY CHRIST!!! has never been accepted as words praising the holy trinity among any christians of my acquaintance.

Praise?  No.  I agree.  You are correct here.

It astounds me how easy the point is missed and the "logic" of illogic is proclaimed.

[Whitney]

I'm moving this thread out of the lounge as it is obviously no longer a "laid back" topic.  Please keep in mind that while I can't think of a cuss word in the book that would break the forum rules (other than racist ones); that regardless of the thread subject or opinions of what others think that this need to be kept civil....it's definately tipping over the edge at this point and needs to be reeled back in.

Btw, AD...in my circle of friends there are a few who do replace god in swears and exclaimations with the FSM or IPU to be funny.  But I'm thinking you are probably referring to curse words said in anger when arguing your view.  

To clarify my comment about curse words having power...I think the power actually comes from the anger in that it sets off the empathy triggers (or anger triggers) of those around us.  But I'm sure you are well aware I didn't mean power in the supernatural sense.

Some people seem to think it helps the atheist cause to make religious curse words common usage or no big deal...I'm not sure I see that point.  If people say them so what but I personally just felt weird about it after I had settled into my nonbeleif.

[AnimatedDirt]

I'm moving this thread out of the lounge as it is obviously no longer a "laid back" topic.  Please keep in mind that while I can't think of a cuss word in the book that would break the forum rules (other than racist ones); that regardless of the thread subject or opinions of what others think that this need to be kept civil....it's definately tipping over the edge at this point and needs to be reeled back in.

Btw, AD...in my circle of friends there are a few who do replace god in swears and exclaimations with the FSM or IPU to be funny.  But I'm thinking you are probably referring to curse words said in anger when arguing your view.  

To clarify my comment about curse words having power...I think the power actually comes from the anger in that it sets off the empathy triggers (or anger triggers) of those around us.  But I'm sure you are well aware I didn't mean power in the supernatural sense.

Some people seem to think it helps the atheist cause to make religious curse words common usage or no big deal...I'm not sure I see that point.  If people say them so what but I personally just felt weird about it after I had settled into my nonbeleif.

Apologies all around on my part in the tipping.

Whitney I appreciate your input and while I see your point of these words coming from anger and from that the power, I also applaud you as, again I mention, that your position of the use of these, whatever the reason is, is the most logical position considering, as you put it, your non-belief.

Again...this is not to say Atheists cannot use these, by all means continue, the point is that BY using these, you appeal to something you don't believe in.  If *you are comfortable in this, that in my opinion and that of many, goes totally opposite of *your world view and all claims therein, then please continue.

It is simply A point of being illogical, and therefore on the same plane as those many call "deluded, crazy, needing a crutch, not able to think for themselves".

In reality, this should be an "A-ha" moment for the Atheist...IMHO.

[Whitney]

I was trying to find an example of humorous ways for an atheist to use religious exclaimations by listening to brother sam videos...and he does say god damn a lot (especially during live shows...actually kinda creepy because the audience starts responding back like an evangelical crowd saying god damn rather than amen; all in fun but...still...)  Anyway...I give you Brother Sam's view on atheists pretending to pray:
[youtube:1usqxqfu]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCNTfzepmbU[/youtube:1usqxqfu]

I wonder if he would think, for similar reasons for why he doesn't bow his head out of respect, that religious swear words should be avoided when not using them as part of a comedy show.  I'll ask him next time I'm around him when he's not in character (might be a while, he doesn't live here).