How I became a theist.

[TheJackel]

My Atheist Pretend Meter just went off the Charts!! That OP reads "Bull Shit" all over it.  

[Sophus]

The two contradict. When apologists try to demean reason and make it seem as though their way of thinking is transcendent of it, it's a trick that hopes to make you forget they're just saying "throw reason out the window here." A weak attempt to make themselves untouchable without reason.

What I think C.S. Lewis was getting at was that logic/reason alone cannot be the only way one comes in contact with God; God, as I mentioned in another thread is not merely just an intellectual exercise. Is that to say C.S. Lewis can't reasonably believe what he believes? Certainly not!

But there are limits to reason.

There it goes again. "Mere" intellectual exercise. There's no nice way to put this: by throwing reason out the window you are not transcending anything. There isn't a single moment outside of religious belief you wouldn't use reason to determine what's real. It has no application and no use beyond one's prejudices.

I know I'm getting a tad off topic but this is something that is really obvious and annoying. Abandoning reason is not a virtue above reason itself. As I recall, when a similar discussion arose you snarked "The only ones here abandoning reason are the atheists." No, you're the one "transcending" it. Rather not adhering to it.

[Achronos]

Who said anything about throwing out reason?

[Sophus]

Who said anything about throwing out reason?

[Ultima22689]

Well this should approve amusing.  

[Asmodean]

Atheists never outgrew their childhood naivete that caused them to believe the magician was actually pulling the rabit out of the hat from thin air. The rest of us, Christians, have come to realize that something actually does not come from nothing. But I can sympathize with the atheists, because it's fun to believe in magic. :| Would have been way cooler if he actually did it." And then I explained to her how he managed to appear to hover above the floor, and was told that I was "no fun at all. None. None what so ever.   "

I seem to vaguely remember giving magic some credit (Believing in it, perhaps), but those were my pre-school years. I'm not sure what changed, how and when, but I know I regarded illusionists and magicians as skilled performers of variably elaborate tricks and stunts when majority of my peers viewed them as having supernatural talents.

[Will]

What's this about C.S. Lewis' sincerity?

I never had the opportunity to speak with Lewis, but I'm quite familiar with his story (having been raised Christian on the Narnia books). While Lewis claimed to once be an atheist, his description of his own atheism actually demonstrates conclusively that he was not. If you've read Surprised by Joy, you'll be familiar with this passage: "I was at this time living, like so many Atheists or Anti-theists, in a whirl of contradictions. I maintained that God did not exist. I was also very angry at God for not existing. I was equally angry at Him for creating a world."

An atheist is incapable of being angry with god. I am no more capable of being angry with god than I am angry with Zeus or Ba'al or any other fictitious character.

C.S. Lewis was never an atheist.

[Achronos]

So Will according to that logic then Hitchens isn't an atheist, so what is Hitchens exactly?

[Will]

It's not "that logic", it's the most basic and fundamental description of atheism. An atheist does not believe in god. I, as an atheist, cannot feel anger towards god any more than you can be angry at Zeus. Are you angry at Zeus? Do you understand and accept this concept?

And Hitchens is not angry at god. His anger with god may have started him on the path to atheism once, but one cannot be angry at gods as an atheist. Hitchens is not angry at god now, particularly not in the way C.S. Lewis articulated his anger.

[Achronos]

It's not "that logic", it's the most basic and fundamental description of atheism. An atheist does not believe in god. I, as an atheist, cannot feel anger towards god any more than you can be angry at Zeus. Are you angry at Zeus? Do you understand and accept this concept?

And Hitchens is not angry at god. His anger with god may have started him on the path to atheism once, but one cannot be angry at gods as an atheist. Hitchens is not angry at god now, particularly not in the way C.S. Lewis articulated his anger.

If there is no God then there are no atheists.

And come on it's vintage Hitchens to be high on hate and light on logic. For him ridicule is the tactic of choice, not reason.

"Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them;" -Thomas Jefferson

He will talk about what outrages him morally, yet never gives a basis for that moral outrage given an atheistic view on reality.

[Will]

If there is no God then there are no atheists.

Atheist describes what one is not. The majority of people on the planet are theists, so we have a term to differentiate ourselves from theists. If god doesn't exist, theists and atheists still exist.

And come on it's vintage Hitchens to be high on hate and light on logic. For him ridicule is the tactic of choice, not reason.

"Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them;" -Thomas Jefferson

He will talk about what outrages him morally, yet never gives a basis for that moral outrage given an atheistic view on reality.

Please don't try to change the subject. You asserted that Hitchens hates god specifically, so I expect you to support that.

[Sophus]

If there is no God then there are no atheists.

Uh oh! Then God doesn't exist. God doesn't believe in gods. So God is an atheist. God exists, therefore atheists don't exist. Therefore God doesn't exist!  

Here's a hypothetical reverse CS Lewis: Someone who says they knew they did not or could not believe in God before becoming an open atheist. Someone who - for whatever reason - felt they had to feign belief, perhaps even to themselves. They do exist. There is research being done on clergy who don't believe.

[Achronos]

Atheist describes what one is not. The majority of people on the planet are theists, so we have a term to differentiate ourselves from theists. If god doesn't exist, theists and atheists still exist.

What I meant is that if there was no God to disbelieve in then their would be nothing to be atheist about. My point being that atheism is an active belief.

Please don't try to change the subject. You asserted that Hitchens hates god specifically, so I expect you to support that.

Well let's see, there was a Frank Turek debate with Hitchens awhile back which the moderator of the debate told Hitchens "Well I guess we can sum up your argument, 'There is no God, and I hate him!'"

He debated with Jay Richards 3 years back on the topic regarding intelligent design which was classic Hitchens as I mentioned above. He debated with Dr. Craig 2 years ago on if the God of Christianity exists, but of course resulted to an appeal of emotions which ended up in an overly insulting debonair argument. He rarely engages to refute the arguments presented, and like I said resorts to a bout of rage. In that debate showed an example of Hitches breaking his own moral values showing that objective moral values don't exist in atheism, since objective moral values don't exist without God. Oh let's not forget the classic summation of another debate with Hitchens "People do bad things,therefore God does not exist."

Should I go on? To say Hitchens isn't angry at a God who supposes doesn't exist is laughable. His debates prove otherwise.

[Will]

What I meant is that if there was no God to disbelieve in then their would be nothing to be atheist about. My point being that atheism is an active belief.

I'm afraid not. Atheism is being unconvinced of something. I'm an a-fairy-ist, a-ghost-ist, a-Easter Bunny-ist right along with being an atheist. I remain unconvinced of the existence of all of these things. The fact I have to call myself an atheist is only a reaction to living in a world where the majority is theist. If the majority of people on the planet believed in X, but I did not, I would self-identify as a-X-ist.

If you lived in ancient Greece, where the majority of people were polytheists, would you not be an apolytheist? Yes or no.

[Achronos]

I'm afraid not. Atheism is being unconvinced of something. I'm an a-fairy-ist, a-ghost-ist, a-Easter Bunny-ist right along with being an atheist. I remain unconvinced of the existence of all of these things. The fact I have to call myself an atheist is only a reaction to living in a world where the majority is theist. If the majority of people on the planet believed in X, but I did not, I would self-identify as a-X-ist.

That's fair that you are not convinced of any argumentation regarding religion or the Easter Bunny, but that does not escape the fact that you do have a belief in something.  For example you said:

An atheist does not believe in god.

You do not believe in god, that is your belief. There is no way around this. And not believing in God would need to have explanations regarding objective morality, the purpose in life, the purpose of the universe, etc. As an atheist these things have to be answered to support your belief that you do not believe in God.

If you lived in ancient Greece, where the majority of people were polytheists, would you not be an apolytheist? Yes or no.

Yes. I could be a theist.