Why Did God Have to Make Evil?

[Sophus]

Hell is an end, not an existence.

Then I'm going to have to disagree with what others have said and assert you are not a fundamentalist.

[AnimatedDirt]

Hell is an end, not an existence.

Then I'm going to have to disagree with what others have said and assert you are not a fundamentalist.

Why thank you!  I'll hold on to this warm feeling.  

[Gawen]

As far as I'm concerned, every person who believes that the laws of Nature/physics changed or were tweaked to allow a god to impregnate a human female, create himself with flesh, sacrifice himself to himself to save naughty humans from his own wrath, and resurrect himself so he could sit on the right hand of himself is a fundamentalist.

Therefore, there are only degrees of fundamentalism.

[TheJackel]

I wasn't addressing you or your question here.

Irrelevant because I was addressing you regardless.

Not at all, and just because you say so, in no manner makes it so.  In "fact", it is exactly as I propose it is, omniscience does not preclude freewill.

Again intentionally ignoring the definition of Omniscience.

It simply acknowledges what will happen.  It is not, therefore, the creator of the happenings.

Intentional attempt to pretend that the Definition of Omniscience doesn't magically apply while at the same time failing to realize oneself stating a contradiction of said being as being the creator to all things! When does the circular logic realize itself is circular?

If God, as I mentioned, is omniscient...knows all, then He knows the best and only way to make a freewill being.

While yet again ignoring the definition of omniscient and applying it to infinitely everything! Please see the definition again please.

Having absolute freewill, even God cannot therefore, control the actions of a freewill agent with absolute freewill.  It seems so elementary to me and yet you throw in all kinds of "philosophies" to disprove it when in simplest form it proves itself.

Incorrect.. You are now nullifying both Omniscience and Omnipotence! Circular logic will not get out out of this AnimatedDirt. Either use the terms correctly as they are defined or please stop using them. I am not tossing specifically "Philosophies" in your direction as I am in terms of the literal context of the definitions of Omniscience, and Omnipotence! If you can't address those properly, I don't think you should be using those terms at all AnimatedDirt.

Agreed...how does that then remove that He knows?  See the previous point above.  Solipsism?  And yet here we are.  Two entities in a discussion.

here you contradict yourself and then try to argue Solipsism. You can not under solipsism prove that you exist to me. Hence, you only exist at my willing, or argue because I choose to argue with myself. If you don't say anything, you don't exist until I have you say something even if I choose to have you argue against my position out of pure amusement to myself. However the point is, Omniscience would be the purist form of Solipsism! In order to infinitely know everything it would have to literally be the sum total of infinite everything!  

This simply does not make sense.

Actually it completely makes sense. What part of "Infinitely Knows everything" do you not understand in regards to that AnimatedDirt?

Once again, in kind fashion, simply knowing the choice does not remove the freedom to choose.  It does not mesh at all.

Actually it does.. It created you under your beliefs while knowing you would make all those choices. The freedom of choice and free will is lost when the creator already knows everything about you in infinite detail before you were ever placed into existence. Thus to state this again in a different way, anything you do, will do, or had done was already known, planned, judged, and fully understood in every infinite way before you were born. It's no different than a puppet show. Free will and choice is thus lost before you were even born. All Purpose becomes lost under Omniscience.

And I think the key word you are having trouble with here is the term Infinite.. As in not finite! To infinitely know everything is to know everything without bounds or limits!

Is this is a joke?  If it is, I would be glad to oblige you, but that wont get us anywhere in a discussion.  If it's not a joke, I have no idea what you're saying.

No it's not. So unless you want to retract Omniscience from the magical list of attributes of your supposed deity, you are going to have to comprehend what Infinitely knowing everything means in literal context!

Do you think you could make a choice or commit a sin that your Omniscient deity would not know about? Could you feel something It would not know you are feeling?
No.  This deity knows it all.  Omniscient.

I think you are starting to catch on while still being in denial

You forget the omnipotent part.  He is then powerful enough to be separate and create separate beings apart from this.

Ahh, but he can't create those things

The created made all it's own decisions that the Creator knew would lead it to the cliff.

Incorrect, it would know all of the above in infinite detail before, during, and after infinitely! From every infinite perspective, view, atom, or in any infinite way you could possibly and infinitely imagine! That includes him actually being you himself in order for him to know exactly every infinite detail of who you are.. To posses and know all information infinitely, the Said GOD would have to be the sum total of all existence itself! Information is all matter, energy, objects, things, patterns, or anything that is technically existent!. That is where information and energy are two sides of the same coin! Material physical structure, patterns, and complexities to which includes yourself. All things have information to offer because all things contain and are made of it, otherwise the absent of information is the absent of existence! There can be no idea, concept, choice, decision, thought, process, or anything without information in the material physical sense. So to state that something is Omniscient is to state that it's the Entire sum of all Existence!

Omniscience is conceptually the purist form of solipsism! Under that context, either all things are GOD or there are no GODS at all!.

It's not.  Omniscience is knowing all, not dictating all.

Impossible to not dictate all if you infinitely know everything, especially when one claims such entity has created everything! And that is pretty hard to do when you are then the sum total of everything already!. If your argument were to have been true, the deity would not be omniscience to where your path was never pre-known and determined in it's infinite entirety, and itself would thus then be finite!. It inherently comes with the territory, and you are unwilling to address that. Just to put as an example more bluntly in different terms in regards to free will and dictatorship:

Where is my free will to never die?
Where is my free will to have my Cat here as long as I live?
Where is my free will to be as powerful as your deity?
Where is my free will to be not judged by some hypocrite entity?
Where us my free will to have my path not be pre-known and prejudged before I even existed?

It seems you don't really understand free will, or what a free agent really is. Or at least never really critically thought about it. Even without a GOD it's still a logical fallacy anyways.

We are not arguing about nothings, but somethings.  Your statement above rests in the right if I am arguing about "non-existent beings"  Let's move back into reality.

Firstly it was equivocating and showing by example. Secondly, you continue to make assumptions and positing them as magical facts while trying to equivocate them to reality. Nice try though! :raised: (this is in reference to free will).. Did GOD know this before Lucifer was created? How would Lucifer freely choose from a path already known to become a reality before he ever existed? It's not hard to understand why Lucifer under the context of an Omniscient GOD to which supposedly created him could not possibly be liable for a path he can not possibly stray from! The choice had already been made! Hence your GOD's invention of murder through his own puppets! The Script was thus already written! :blink:

There is no paradox in knowing all and creating freewill agents.  Knowing simply does not remove the ability of a free agent to choose freely.  Sorry.

Oh but there is because I wrote one! Avoidance and denial for sake of circular arguments? And since when was this specifically only about "free will" vs Omniscience as a whole being a Logical fallacy? Especially in conjunction with Omnipotence. Address the paradox and issue please and stop playing games!

Not at all.  On the human level, is it morally wrong to use the death penalty?  One assumes that at that point, the accused is guilty beyond a shadow of doubt, however humanly, we make mistakes.  We are not omni-anything.

WOW that was a deflection and a half.  lol

It's not hypocrisy.

Now you don't know the definition of Hypocrisy? Seriously?

I can't give you.  It is different for each person.  If you have no need of anything, what, short of God appearing to you, would change your mind?  Your question is a logical fallacy on your own ideals.

preaching again? And it doesn't matter what came before my eyes, I don't worship things as "GODS". The entire concept is irrelevant to me. The GOD concept is entirely a concept of pure opinion and nothing more.

Example:

It can't create existence! Thus it is not a GOD, or even be all powerful and all knowing since it can't create what itself requires to exist. Thus is not the answer to existence what-so-ever! It's irrelevant to me if a more powerful or intelligent entity or being would exist or not!. In a world of Opinions, an Opinion is irrelevant to the world of Opinions! It only has relevance to that which has the opinion... So much for perfection in your supposed perfect deity only to be nullified by mere opinion!

[TheJackel]

As far as I'm concerned, every person who believes that the laws of Nature/physics changed or were tweaked to allow a god to impregnate a human female, create himself with flesh, sacrifice himself to himself to save naughty humans from his own wrath, and resurrect himself so he could sit on the right hand of himself is a fundamentalist.

Therefore, there are only degrees of fundamentalism.

I would agree here.

[LegendarySandwich]

I don't think that free will can exist completely at all, even in a godless universe. Add an omniscient god into the equation and you're just shit out of luck concerning free will.

[TheJackel]

I don't think that free will can exist completely at all, even in a godless universe. Add an omniscient god into the equation and you're just shit out of luck concerning free will.

That is very true ;P

[Gawen]

Well Ad, I read your reply to me, but....the Bible does not support your version of free will:
Exodus, Ecclesiastes 7:13, Ephesians 1: 3-6, Ephesians 2: 4-10, Acts 13:48, Acts 15:18, Romans 8: 28-30, Roman 9: 10-21, 2 Timothy 1:9, 2 Thessalonians 2:9-13, Titus 3:4-5, Revelation 13:8, Jude verse 4, Job 4:18, 2 Chron. 6:36, Ps. 51:5, Prov. 20:9, John 3:6,
St. Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, Martin Luther and Calvin do not support your version.

The Bible denies free will and any element of choice in whatever good works one does because God has picked, before creation,who will do what good or bad deeds. God also punishes and rewards people on account of what God has chosen, in accordance with God's plan and purpose. Makes a lot of sense doesn't it? It's immoral by any standard. A good god would simply choose everyone to conform to Jesus, to be blessed, to be 'blameless', but this still does away with free will.

Satan (2 Corinthians 11:14) is shown to have been created by God to be "a murderer from the beginning" â€" that is, from the very commencement of his creation he was already reckoned by God to be a murderer (John 8:44). So much for Lucifer's free will.

The Bible shows that evil is as much a part of God’s creation: 1 Samuel 2:6:7, Deuteronomy 32:39, Isaiah 54:16, Proverbs 16:4, Lamentations 3:37â€"38, Daniel 4:35, James 4:12, Acts 15:18

Also, an Omni-God cannot have free will. An all good god always chooses the path that causes the most good and therefore has no real choice. Because an all-knowing god instantly knows all of its future actions and its knowledge cannot be wrong, it therefore has no free will to choose otherwise. However a god with no free must adhere to its alignment (good, bad or morally indifferent). Now, if an all-powerful and all-knowing God exists, this automatically denies free will in humans. Paul, Aquinas, et al., seemed to figure this out. Why they, or anyone for that matter would believe in such a concept is beyond my ken.

If God has no free will but is good then there was no point creating evil to give humans free will because it is possible to be good with no free will. If God, angels and other beings in heaven have free will where there is no evil or suffering, then it cannot be true that god lets evil exist because it is a required side-effect of free will.

The way I see it, you simply have three choices:
1) God is Evil or
2) God is Amoral or
3) The Bible is not the Word of God

[TheJackel]

Well Ad, I read your reply to me, but....the Bible does not support your version of free will:
Exodus, Ecclesiastes 7:13, Ephesians 1: 3-6, Ephesians 2: 4-10, Acts 13:48, Acts 15:18, Romans 8: 28-30, Roman 9: 10-21, 2 Timothy 1:9, 2 Thessalonians 2:9-13, Titus 3:4-5 and Revelation 13:8, Jude verse 4, Job 4:18.
St. Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, Martin Luther and Calvin do not support your version.

The Bible denies free will and any element of choice in whatever good works one does because God has picked, before creation,who will do what good or bad deeds. God also punishes and rewards people on account of what God has chosen, in accordance with God's plan and purpose. Makes a lot of sense doesn't it? It's immoral by any standard. A good god would simply choose everyone to conform to Jesus, to be blessed, to be 'blameless', but this still does away with free will.

Satan (2 Corinthians 11:14) is shown to have been created by God to be "a murderer from the beginning" â€" that is, from the very commencement of his creation he was already reckoned by God to be a murderer (John 8:44). So much for Lucifer's free will.

The Bible shows that evil is as much a part of God’s creation: 1 Samuel 2:6:7, Deuteronomy 32:39, Isaiah 54:16, Proverbs 16:4, Lamentations 3:37â€"38, Daniel 4:35, James 4:12, Acts 15:18
You have two choices:

    * God is Evil or Amoral
      or
    * Much of The Bible is Not the Word of God

Also, an Omni-God cannot have free will. An all good god always chooses the path that causes the most good and therefore has no real choice. Because an all-knowing god instantly knows all of its future actions and its knowledge cannot be wrong, it therefore has no free will to choose otherwise. However a god with no free must adhere to its alignment (good, bad or morally indifferent). Now, if an all-powerful and all-knowing God exists, this automatically denies free will in humans. Paul, Aquinas, et al., seemed to figure this out. Why they, or anyone for that matter would believe in such a concept is beyond my ken.

If God has no free will but is good then there was no point creating evil to give humans free will because it is possible to be good with no free will. If God, angels and other beings in heaven have free will where there is no evil or suffering, then it cannot be true that god lets evil exist because it is a required side-effect of free will.

The way I see it, you simply have three choices:
You have two choices:
1) God is Evil or
2) God is Amoral or
3) The Bible is not the Word of God

What's even funnier is that GOD even asks Lucifer why he killed as if he was completely ignorant of it, or as if Lucifer didn't already know that he knew.    

[Gawen]

I don't think that free will can exist completely at all, even in a godless universe. Add an omniscient god into the equation and you're just shit out of luck concerning free will.

That is very true ;P

Yes and no. I have enough free will to walk down to the corner store to buy some chips. I also know that my free will can be preempted by a multitude of factors (known and unknown) that would prevent me walking to the corner store at any step of the way or even buying the chips. Free will is free until something prevents the freedom.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Erm, that's three choices.

Otherwise, keep rockin' the logic.  

[Gawen]

What's even funnier is that GOD even asks Lucifer why he killed as if he was completely ignorant of it, or as if Lucifer didn't already know that he knew.  

I know. A veritable plethora of contradictions. Eh, but then again, maybe God was looking for some small talk with one of his angels....

[Gawen]

Erm, that's three choices.

Otherwise, keep rockin' the logic.  

Oooops....fixed it...thanks.

I'm going to leave this topic alone for now. It'll be interesting to see how Ad and voter reconcile this. I don't see how it is possible, but I'm sure they will find a way.

[TheJackel]

I don't think that free will can exist completely at all, even in a godless universe. Add an omniscient god into the equation and you're just shit out of luck concerning free will.

That is very true ;P

Yes and no. I have enough free will to walk down to the corner store to buy some chips. I also know that my free will can be preempted by a multitude of factors (known and unknown) that would prevent me walking to the corner store at any step of the way or even buying the chips. Free will is free until something prevents the freedom.

You have some free will that is allowed. But true free will doesn't really exist as it's a logical fallacy itself

[Gawen]

Yes and no. I have enough free will to walk down to the corner store to buy some chips. I also know that my free will can be preempted by a multitude of factors (known and unknown) that would prevent me walking to the corner store at any step of the way or even buying the chips. Free will is free until something prevents the freedom.

You have some free will that is allowed. But true free will doesn't really exist as it's a logical fallacy itself

yup...I agree