God cannot exist...sue me!

[TheJackel]

That which is beyond the sum of that which exist, by definition, does not exist itself, yes?  

That would be correct.

[Stevil]

That which is beyond the sum of that which exist, by definition, does not exist itself, yes?  

That would be correct.

So....

When is he going to correct this mistake?
The whole of Christianity hangs in the balance here, I would have thought this would be very near the top (if not the top) of his list of things to do.
One important dilemma that I can see is that he has also stated that anything less than creation of existence would only resolve to deism and not Christianity. Sticky situation here.

[TheJackel]

What is so desperate about what I wrote?  What I have written have been believed for centuries.  This is nothing new.

Not hard to imagine people centuries believing such nonsense, especially considering their average education was pretty damn poor. I could have flown over them in a Helicopter and they would have worshiped me as a GOD. Centuries old nonsense doesn't make it any less nonsensical centuries later. You are here attempting to suggest that because other people believe something that it's magically truth. It's a false and dishonest argument because you really don't want to face the arguments posted.

I'm simply applying the same beliefs as has been professed before.

Irrelevant

You claim to be a Christian before.  Show some sympathy then.

How can I show you sympathy when you continue to use dishonest discourse, knowingly so no less. I've tried to be sympathetic, and you must remember where you are here. You are on a Forum that challenges and discusses these issues. If you don't want your faith or belief in GOD challenged, why are you here? You ought to know better, and ought to know what to expect when you enter these discussions, especially when you choose to engage in them.

So far, it seems we're just talking past one another, where you call me stupid, and I call you narrow-minded.

Nobody called you stupid, nor do I think you are stupid. However, that doesn't mean that your actions here weren't stupid. We all do stupid things, and I did point that out. I also outlined why you got yourself into that position. You engaged in dishonest discourse, deflective arguments, circular arguments, and even arguments that were clearly made up as you went along. Did you seriously think those kinds of debating tactics or arguments would land you any respect? I even sometimes find myself in these situations to where I need to take a good step back and realize my own nonsense. We are all human, and we all do stupid things from time to time. So no, I wouldn't hold this against you unless you really choose to persist with it.  

I never tagged an attribute of non-existence or existence to God.

Actually you have, more than once. Please re-read your arguments. Don't make me quote you, that's not going to turn out well for you.

I am limited in my discussion of Him.  You compare God to "dragons, sky fairies" and yet you can't understand what I am trying to tell you.  You are unable to understand because you don't want to.  You are narrow-minded, and a pejorative one at that.

No, I compared your version or concept of it to those because it really is beyond possible. Also made the argument that you keep ignoring, and that argument was that the concept of GOD is only a concept of Opinion regardless of any entity should exist. Opinions in a world of Opinions is irrelevant! Things are only GODS if you worship them as such. Otherwise it's an irrelevant concept simply because anything can be worshiped as a GOD!.

Opinion is only your opinion.

Interesting, it seems like you have had your first logical thought. Now read the above over again.

Nothing what you say I disagree with.  I understand science very well.  I don't denounce science, but I respectfully disagree with your belief that that's all that's there.

Eh? Science is only the study of all that is there and nothing more. Are you making the argument that since you feel there should be more, that there is magically more? It's ok if you disagree with my position, but that isn't actually what you are attempting to disagree with. This entire time you have been attempting to disagree with the fundamental rules of existence itself as if that's magically possible. Your GOD can't be made of nothing, can't be infinite, can't be omnipotent, can't be all powerful, can't exist out side the capacity of existence or spatial capacity, can't be a negative dimensional object, can't function or even know itself exists without information, can't create existence, and surely can't create the rules of existence either. The Christian GOD concept is so flawed that it's actually rather ridiculous.

Come again?  So you are arguing that the flaws of religion and of God is a god that created suffering and death and that people can't even lead by example?  If you can't see how emotional you are in your arguments right now, then you're right, there's no point in continuing this discussion.

I actually was quite calm, you simply read emotion in that vs actually taking the time to understand the argument. So I will make it really easy for you.

(under your beliefs)
1)  Did your GOD create the 10 commandments
2) Did your GOD create Death?
3) Did your GOD create suffering?
4) Did your GOD kill anything?
5) Do intelligent and wise Leaders lead by example, or do hypocrites make good leaders?
6) Is your GOD omnipotent (infinitely knows all there can infinitely ever be known?)
7) Who at that point would be responsible for when some parent drowns their children in a bathtub for their sins, or when someone commits genocide?

It's pretty much exactly what Island of Dr Monroe was referencing to.. You can't blame the beasts of your creations, fore their faults are that of your own doing! Nor can you lead by hypocrisy and expect those to follow your laws to which yourself chooses not to follow. Now go Back and read Genesis.

Is that really the best you can do?

Really? Do you even understand why you failed? What part about "try replying without energy, information, material physicality,existence, spatial capacity, matter ect" did you not comprehend? Of course you failed!

I don't understand this part of your post.  I thought what I stated here was clearly relevant to the discussion we're having.

This discussion pertains to all GODS, and not just the Christian GOD. Christianity is more specifically used in this argument because Creationism is actually impossible, nor would it be required.

Magical?  Place of non-existence?  Obviously, if you were a Christian, you'd understand where I'm coming from as I don't state belief in God is a magical idea, neither is God in a place of non-existence.  In fact where do I even state that?

To put this gently, if your GOD is made of something, your argument completely fails. Hence bound to material physicality. If you try to state it's made of non-material (nothing), The GOD concept still fails and self-collapses. Hence, not the answer to existence as it would just be another product of existence. You need to learn what infinite regress is and why no mind, or entity could ever solve infinite regress. It will need a place to exist in, something to be made of, and a complexity at least greater than zero. Just like the rest of us!

Existence itself is the cause to all that exists and can exist. Not some entity you want to worship as A GOD since itself is bound and slave to those very same rules! It can't create that which itself requires to exist. Minds can only be observers and processors of reality, they can not actually create it. Conscious beings can however manipulate it on a very limited scale, such as building cities.

The question "Who built your God" is a logical fallacy if one truly understands how God is defined.  God IS.  That's it.

Incorrect. Your god requires to be made of something (material physicality), requires information to even know itself exists, requires information to even be conscious, must have a place to exist, must be more complex than ground state (zero), and must be bound to the rules of time... Sorry kiddo but your so called GOD is a logical fallacy. It can't solve infinite regress, and requires far more cause to exist than you are willing to admit. In fact it would require more cause to exist then either you or I. It's slave to the rules of existence to which itself can not create!

Your biggest problem, Existence doesn't require your GOD to exist! Your really have it ass backwards.

Really?  Is that the best you got?  Calling Christianity a "copy and paste" religion by assuming it was borrowed from a Sun God? 6 What relevance is it when one says that atheism is nothing but a rehash of Epicurus?  Does that really weaken atheism?

This tells me that you know very little about how Christianity was formed. And how would that ever weaken Atheism? GOD's are conceptually not applicable to many atheists because power and control aren't attributes worthy of worship. Entities are irrelevant, especially in regards to opinionated concepts such as GODS.  Anyways we can explore this discussion here:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4733

Heck, I even had to debunk a crazy supposed "Creationist Scientist" here:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4624

A religion that has aspects of truth doesn't falsify Christianity.

There are a a lot of things that Falsify Christianity.

Example:

    Genesis 1:29 Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food."


 Many humans have died, or have gotten severely ill discovering that even a potato is only edible if you don't eat the green parts. Here is but a very very very small list  

http://thinkingaloudforum.com/forum/vie ... 30#p473865

Fine, there is a chaotic element of positive, negative, and neutral.  How is it that positive and negatives never cancel each other out

They do, a lot. A simple collapse of wave function in electrodynamics is a perfect example. And you are also forgetting that order from chaos is the result from positive, and negative feedback. Order lies at the very edge of chaos. When such things cancel out, you get neutral states, or different results and outcomes.  If you really want to dig deep into this subject, really take the time to study it.

Forgive me if you already explained it or I missed it, but I need to understand more of this.  In the meantime, is this what at present many people use to show that God doesn't exist?

On a forum? They do make science books you know :eek:

I know you don't like hearing that.  I'm not trying to resort to any argument to convince you anything.  I am trying to show you how I personally believe.  I know you won't be convinced.  I didn't think what I said will convince you at all.  I'm simply trying to have a conversation and maybe try to understand where you're coming from, but you're making it impossible, and you resort to attacks.  I'm sorry you feel this way.

You need to get more realistic with your concept before it can be considered even plausible. BTW, you are getting handed the hammer because you keep making irrational and nonsensical arguments. There is so much dishonest discourse in your arguments that it's literally ridiculous.  :blink:

.  To me, not believing in God requires one to live in a dumpster for years and not knowing that you smell bad.

You base your faith on dogma?   I think you are probably a nice guy who is passionate about his beliefs, I can respect that because I do know what that is like myself

[TheJackel]

That which is beyond the sum of that which exist, by definition, does not exist itself, yes?  

That would be correct.

So....

When is he going to correct this mistake?
The whole of Christianity hangs in the balance here, I would have thought this would be very near the top (if not the top) of his list of things to do.
One important dilemma that I can see is that he has also stated that anything less than creation of existence would only resolve to deism and not Christianity. Sticky situation here.

Basically he's just mind masturbating the argument. It's really simple, if his god has to follow the laws of existence, his GOD becomes no GOD at all. Thus it must maintain a Carl's Dragon argument, and an entity with impossible Powers and attributes so fantastically ridiculous that it could exist outside of existence. Even the very concept that it would require a place to exist in would collapse the entire concept of GOD.

[Tank]

God is beyond the "sum of all things that exist."

Heh heh, that's one way of putting it.  :pop:

Quite so, oh round piece of grumpy clay.

[Asmodean]

Quite so, oh round piece of grumpy clay.

That, I like!  

[Achronos]

That which is beyond the sum of that which exist, by definition, does not exist itself, yes?  

No, not at all.  I tell you, the concept of God is not like fairies or unicorns.  When we say He exists, we don't say He exists like we do, we just don't have any better language to describe His being.  He neither exists nor does He not exist.  He is beyond the sum total of all things that exist like we exist.  He is the One we believe who created the laws of the cosmos, the "stuff" of the cosmos, and the interactions occurring between the "stuff" of the cosmos.  We believe that it is through Him that there exists the sum total of all things.  The sum total of all things is not Him, but He is in them, and they exist through Him.  It's a mystery that we can't explain, but as we grow, we get better at understanding more about it, which is what makes belief in Him and the afterlife so exciting.

The whole of Christianity hangs in the balance here, I would have thought this would be very near the top (if not the top) of his list of things to do.

Do what exactly?  Talk about this?  You could simply ask.

One important dilemma that I can see is that he has also stated that anything less than creation of existence would only resolve to deism and not Christianity. Sticky situation here.

Indeed.  A pantheistic sort of deism.  I.e. we're all part of "God" and God is an impersonal sum of all things, a force, the "laws" of our existence, the collective beauty of what is around.  I think most atheists really would resort to this type of belief in God.  It is very close to the "One" of the Hindus, without all the reincarnation stuff.  It essentially makes no difference to me whether one is a Hindu or an atheist.  Both have a form a vanity of life in it and makes all things seem that in the end, nothing matters really.

[LegendarySandwich]

Both have a form a vanity of life in it and makes all things seem that in the end, nothing matters really.

Yes, atheists are vain because we think that the universe was created for us, we're arbitrarily separated from the rest of the animal kingdom because of a supernatural piece of fluff that has absolutely no evidence to support its existence, and that we'll go to Heaven when we die because we let go of our reasoning and rational thinking to believe in an ancient book written by goat herders.

Oh, wait.

Seriously though, HOW THE FUCK ARE WE VAIN. MOST OF US BELIEVE THAT WE AREN'T REALLY MORE SPECIAL THAN ANYTHING ELSE. THAT'S THE OPPOSITE OF VANITY.

[Stevil]

Yes, atheists are vain because we think that the universe was created for us

We should thank the Christian god for creating this for us. Where ever we look, lots and lots of pretty star formations. Very thoughtful of the Christian god.
[youtube:1iopsm90]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcBV-cXVWFw[/youtube:1iopsm90]

[Stevil]

we just don't have any better language to describe His being.  He neither exists nor does He not exist

The English description based on your definition would be "an impossible concept" nothing more than a romantic collective dream based on wishful desires while clinging to a denial of reality. Given that you do have a very good grasp on science I was hoping that you would limited the scope and power of your god to something more within the bounds of reality. I am truly on Dawkins level 7 with regards to this concept. Given your debating record on this site however I was not expecting you to backtrack or admit you don't know the answer but simply come up with waffle that offers no further realistic credance to how this impossiblity can actually be possible.

Either the Christian god is part of reality or it is not. If part of reality then it must exist. If it exists then it must be within space and must be made of something that also exists e.g. energy of which you are saying the Christian god created. I don't see a way around this.

You can't decide neither of the above since your argument does not hold ground with either premise. These two options are all encompasing as there is only either existence or non existence, there is not an option c no matter how unfathomable you make out that it is. Your attempt to suggest otherwise simply shows your willingness to deceive. Since you have taken this path I have to ask "Do you actually believe in the Christian God?" If you know that you are correct in your belief in the Christian god then I would have thought you would not need to resort to intentional deceit.

[Achronos]

Not hard to imagine people centuries .....SNIP..... Is like myself

TheJackel, please stop quoting from websites that INVENT "pagan parallels" to Christ whole cloth. Many of those parallels simply are not true! It's hard to take someone seriously when you credulously quote from websites that claim Krishna was crucified. No such doctrine exists in Hinduism. Sorry, try again!

Some of those are interesting, but you don't really want to talk about those do you? Nah, I didn't think so! I've addressed most of your points below.

[Achronos]

How can I show you sympathy when you continue to use dishonest discourse, knowingly so no less. I've tried to be sympathetic, and you must remember where you are here. You are on a Forum that challenges and discusses these issues. If you don't want your faith or belief in GOD challenged, why are you here? You ought to know better, and ought to know what to expect when you enter these discussions, especially when you choose to engage in them.

Honestly this is what is confusing, because I honestly don't know where I've been dishonest to you.  It's as if you've known me for years or something to claim I'm using dishonest discourse.

Actually you have, more than once. Please re-read your arguments. Don't make me quote you, that's not going to turn out well for you.

Humor me.

Things are only GODS if you worship them as such. Otherwise it's an irrelevant concept simply because anything can be worshiped as a GOD!.

You have to differentiate between what is worshipped and what is God.  Not everyone flies an airplane, that doesn't mean the airplane is subjectively not an airplane to those that don't fly it.  God is God whether or not you worship Him.  Worship is only the result of a person's respect to Him, Who needs no worship anyway.

Eh? Science is only the study of all that is there and nothing more. Are you making the argument that since you feel there should be more, that there is magically more? It's ok if you disagree with my position, but that isn't actually what you are attempting to disagree with. This entire time you have been attempting to disagree with the fundamental rules of existence itself as if that's magically possible. Your GOD can't be made of nothing, can't be infinite, can't be omnipotent, can't be all powerful, can't exist out side the capacity of existence or spatial capacity, can't be a negative dimensional object, can't function or even know itself exists without information, can't create existence, and surely can't create the rules of existence either. The Christian GOD concept is so flawed that it's actually rather ridiculous.

And honestly, when you were a Christian what did you think God was?  What exactly did you believe?

I actually was quite calm, you simply read emotion in that vs actually taking the time to understand the argument. So I will make it really easy for you.

Calm or not, you are eliciting emotion.  I am actually also quite calm in my discussion with you too.

(under your beliefs)
1)  Did your GOD create the 10 commandments
2) Did your GOD create Death?
3) Did your GOD create suffering?
4) Did your GOD kill anything?
5) Do intelligent and wise Leaders lead by example, or do hypocrites make good leaders?
6) Is your GOD omnipotent (infinitely knows all there can infinitely ever be known?)
7) Who at that point would be responsible for when some parent drowns their children in a bathtub for their sins, or when someone commits genocide?

1. Yes
2. Yes
3. Yes
4. Probably
5. Intelligent and wise leaders lead by example
6. Yes
7. The parent and the genocidal ones are responsible, so they will be held accountable for their actions with God.

Now go Back and read Genesis.

Arrogant anyone?  Hmmmm...how about you go back and read the gospel of John,.

Or maybe, you can give me some verses so that we can have have a discussion.

This discussion pertains to all GODS, and not just the Christian GOD. Christianity is more specifically used in this argument because Creationism is actually impossible, nor would it be required.

What in the world has creationism to do with this?  We're talking about God, specifically in the Christian concept.  You want to bring other gods into this discussion, be my guest, but you're wasting your own time.  These religions don't even exist anymore.  They have no merit on their own anymore.  If God was certainly true for those religions, they would have never been extinct.  Just because they have aspects of truth doesn't make Christianity "false."

To put this gently, if your GOD is made of something, your argument completely fails. Hence bound to material physicality. If you try to state it's made of non-material (nothing), The GOD concept still fails and self-collapses. Hence, not the answer to existence as it would just be another product of existence. You need to learn what infinite regress is and why no mind, or entity could ever solve infinite regress. It will need a place to exist in, something to be made of, and a complexity at least greater than zero. Just like the rest of us!

What exactly did you belief in God used to entail?

Existence itself is the cause to all that exists and can exist. Not some entity you want to worship as A GOD since itself is bound and slave to those very same rules!

Mistake, you assume that God is bound and slave to the "very same rules."  Where did I profess such a belief?  I don't believe in that.

It can't create that which itself requires to exist. Minds can only be observers and processors of reality, they can not actually create it.[/u] Conscious beings can however manipulate it on a very limited scale, such as building cities.

Minds can only be observers and processors of reality, but they can't actually create it.  If that's so, how is do minds "create God?"

Incorrect. Your god requires to be made of something (material physicality)

No!  Never said that!  You want it to be that way.  The fact that I've given you a mysterious definition of God is driving you insane right now because you're unable to make your point unless God is actually within a created cosmos.

requires information to even know itself exists,

No!

requires information to even be conscious,

No!

must have a place to exist,

No!

must be more complex than ground state (zero),

No! Neither more complex or more simple, excited or less so.  He created ground state.

and must be bound to the rules of time...

No! Never said He is bound to the rules of time.  He created time.  

Sorry kiddo but your so called GOD is a logical fallacy.

I'm not sure how you saw logical fallacy when you claim to reiterate things about God I never confessed.

It can't solve infinite regress,

You can't solve infinite regress.  God created infinite regress.

and requires far more cause to exist than you are willing to admit. In fact it would require more cause to exist then either you or I. It's slave to the rules of existence to which itself can not create!

No, it has no cause to exist other than the fact that He just is.  He's not slave to the rules of existence, He created existence and its rules.

Your biggest problem, Existence doesn't require your GOD to exist! Your really have it ass backwards.

Existence most certainly does not disprove God.  God is necessary for man's spiritual needs.  I believe God gave existence a freedom in her laws, and so being part of this existence, I find a need for God to bless my freedom for a fulfilling life.

There are a a lot of things that Falsify Christianity.

Example:

    Genesis 1:29 Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food."

This verse in its context talks about a story of Adam being in Paradise, where there's nothing detrimental for Adam until He disobeyed God.  So it's irrelevant to anything outside Paradise (typified as the Garden of Eden).  All the plants in the Garden of Eden are not harmful in it, that is allegory for the Divine Knowledge in Paradise, use it all for growth, except this Tree of Knowledge, you're not ready for it yet.

Actually I do , Internet is a good search tool as well. I'm not going to spend all year teaching you physics, or the entire sum of everything man currently knows. I provided you with a very basic understanding to where the most important aspects of understanding is found in those 3 laws, and ground state. The rest is semantics technically speaking.

I apologize.  As you may not know, my mind is tailored to biological sciences.  Physics, I only understand fundamentally, and Newtonian at best.  Is there an easy-to-read book where I can get an introductory feel of these teachings?

Did you scientifically validate any of your arguments? Such as that very argument that got you into a logical fallacy that tries to fly in the face of the laws of existence? These laws that can not possibly be written or broken but rather followed and subjected to require in order to exist? You are rejecting the scientific method by making up things as you go along without even being able to back yourself up. What do you expect when you say your GOD exists outside all that exists?

Okay, if to you what I'm saying is scientifically connected in some way, then perhaps, we need time off so that I can read some of these things and get back to you with a better understanding.  Are you a physicist of some sort?

That really proves how much of a fallacy it is. Besides, the concept is purely reliant on your opinion anyways. Other opinions already nullify it. Opinionated concepts are irrelevant.

The point is that nothing can adequately describe God except what has been revealed to us, especially through Christ.  We receive the Holy Spirit that we may grow in God more and comprehend Him more, but it takes forever to do so.  That's the idea.  No science, nothing in all of existence here can adequately describe Him or understand Him.

I don't believe in the concepts of GODS, it's simply not applicable what-so-ever regardless if an entity even existed. Either all things are GODS, or there are no GODS at all.

I'm asking when you were a Christian, what exactly was your idea of God?

You do understand the very contradiction of your post correct? If you have a concept in your head, you have fathomed it.

I can fathom only as much as I can fathom, but He is more.  He became incarnate to lift our minds to Him.

The argument here used however is merely an excuse to believe when it's existence has shown to be irrelevant, impossible, or subjected to the arguments above. It's more Carl Segan's Dragon, and that gets you nowhere in a debate.

It does get no one anywhere in the debate.  I feel like I'm only reiterating my definition.  If it's a logical fallacy, fine.  I think Hawking understood exactly the definition of God, and sees how theists can find God still compatible with what he solved.  He chose His words carefully.  He didn't disprove God, he simply feels God is unnecessary.

You need to get more realistic with your concept before it can be considered even plausible. BTW, you are getting handed the hammer because you keep making irrational and nonsensical arguments. There is so much dishonest discourse in your arguments that it's literally ridiculous.  :raised:  

That was an analogy.  When people live in a dumpster they don't know what smelling bad is.  When your whole life you think a certain way about existence and about God, you don't know what God really is, and I don't really think you know where I am coming from, and we're just talking past one another.

Please do realize though that there is nothing wrong with what you believe in. Just remember that getting into discussions with opposing views, use honest discourse and arguments.

And I too feel you really do care, but somehow either you or I am not getting it.  You accuse me of logical fallacy, but I think you are misrepresenting my ideas about God to begin with!

Perhaps, it's best we start all over.  What do you think Christians think God is?

[TheJackel]

How can I show you sympathy when you continue to use dishonest discourse, knowingly so no less. I've tried to be sympathetic, and you must remember where you are here. You are on a Forum that challenges and discusses these issues. If you don't want your faith or belief in GOD challenged, why are you here? You ought to know better, and ought to know what to expect when you enter these discussions, especially when you choose to engage in them.

Honestly this is what is confusing, because I honestly don't know where I've been dishonest to you.  It's as if you've known me for years or something to claim I'm using dishonest discourse.

Actually you have, more than once. Please re-read your arguments. Don't make me quote you, that's not going to turn out well for you.

Humor me.

Things are only GODS if you worship them as such. Otherwise it's an irrelevant concept simply because anything can be worshiped as a GOD!.

You have to differentiate between what is worshipped and what is God.  Not everyone flies an airplane, that doesn't mean the airplane is subjectively not an airplane to those that don't fly it.  God is God whether or not you worship Him.  Worship is only the result of a person's respect to Him, Who needs no worship anyway.

Eh? Science is only the study of all that is there and nothing more. Are you making the argument that since you feel there should be more, that there is magically more? It's ok if you disagree with my position, but that isn't actually what you are attempting to disagree with. This entire time you have been attempting to disagree with the fundamental rules of existence itself as if that's magically possible. Your GOD can't be made of nothing, can't be infinite, can't be omnipotent, can't be all powerful, can't exist out side the capacity of existence or spatial capacity, can't be a negative dimensional object, can't function or even know itself exists without information, can't create existence, and surely can't create the rules of existence either. The Christian GOD concept is so flawed that it's actually rather ridiculous.

And honestly, when you were a Christian what did you think God was?  What exactly did you believe?

I actually was quite calm, you simply read emotion in that vs actually taking the time to understand the argument. So I will make it really easy for you.

Calm or not, you are eliciting emotion.  I am actually also quite calm in my discussion with you too.

(under your beliefs)
1)  Did your GOD create the 10 commandments
2) Did your GOD create Death?
3) Did your GOD create suffering?
4) Did your GOD kill anything?
5) Do intelligent and wise Leaders lead by example, or do hypocrites make good leaders?
6) Is your GOD omnipotent (infinitely knows all there can infinitely ever be known?)
7) Who at that point would be responsible for when some parent drowns their children in a bathtub for their sins, or when someone commits genocide?

1. Yes
2. Yes
3. Yes
4. Probably
5. Intelligent and wise leaders lead by example
6. Yes
7. The parent and the genocidal ones are responsible, so they will be held accountable for their actions with God.

Now go Back and read Genesis.

Arrogant anyone?  Hmmmm...how about you go back and read the gospel of John,.

Or maybe, you can give me some verses so that we can have have a discussion.

This discussion pertains to all GODS, and not just the Christian GOD. Christianity is more specifically used in this argument because Creationism is actually impossible, nor would it be required.

What in the world has creationism to do with this?  We're talking about God, specifically in the Christian concept.  You want to bring other gods into this discussion, be my guest, but you're wasting your own time.  These religions don't even exist anymore.  They have no merit on their own anymore.  If God was certainly true for those religions, they would have never been extinct.  Just because they have aspects of truth doesn't make Christianity "false."

To put this gently, if your GOD is made of something, your argument completely fails. Hence bound to material physicality. If you try to state it's made of non-material (nothing), The GOD concept still fails and self-collapses. Hence, not the answer to existence as it would just be another product of existence. You need to learn what infinite regress is and why no mind, or entity could ever solve infinite regress. It will need a place to exist in, something to be made of, and a complexity at least greater than zero. Just like the rest of us!

What exactly did you belief in God used to entail?

Existence itself is the cause to all that exists and can exist. Not some entity you want to worship as A GOD since itself is bound and slave to those very same rules!

Mistake, you assume that God is bound and slave to the "very same rules."  Where did I profess such a belief?  I don't believe in that.

It can't create that which itself requires to exist. Minds can only be observers and processors of reality, they can not actually create it.[/u] Conscious beings can however manipulate it on a very limited scale, such as building cities.

Minds can only be observers and processors of reality, but they can't actually create it.  If that's so, how is do minds "create God?"

Incorrect. Your god requires to be made of something (material physicality)

No!  Never said that!  You want it to be that way.  The fact that I've given you a mysterious definition of God is driving you insane right now because you're unable to make your point unless God is actually within a created cosmos.

requires information to even know itself exists,

No!

requires information to even be conscious,

No!

must have a place to exist,

No!

must be more complex than ground state (zero),

No! Neither more complex or more simple, excited or less so.  He created ground state.

and must be bound to the rules of time...

No! Never said He is bound to the rules of time.  He created time.  

Sorry kiddo but your so called GOD is a logical fallacy.

I'm not sure how you saw logical fallacy when you claim to reiterate things about God I never confessed.

It can't solve infinite regress,

You can't solve infinite regress.  God created infinite regress.

and requires far more cause to exist than you are willing to admit. In fact it would require more cause to exist then either you or I. It's slave to the rules of existence to which itself can not create!

No, it has no cause to exist other than the fact that He just is.  He's not slave to the rules of existence, He created existence and its rules.

Your biggest problem, Existence doesn't require your GOD to exist! Your really have it ass backwards.

Existence most certainly does not disprove God.  God is necessary for man's spiritual needs.  I believe God gave existence a freedom in her laws, and so being part of this existence, I find a need for God to bless my freedom for a fulfilling life.

There are a a lot of things that Falsify Christianity.

Example:

    Genesis 1:29 Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food."

This verse in its context talks about a story of Adam being in Paradise, where there's nothing detrimental for Adam until He disobeyed God.  So it's irrelevant to anything outside Paradise (typified as the Garden of Eden).  All the plants in the Garden of Eden are not harmful in it, that is allegory for the Divine Knowledge in Paradise, use it all for growth, except this Tree of Knowledge, you're not ready for it yet.

Actually I do , Internet is a good search tool as well. I'm not going to spend all year teaching you physics, or the entire sum of everything man currently knows. I provided you with a very basic understanding to where the most important aspects of understanding is found in those 3 laws, and ground state. The rest is semantics technically speaking.

I apologize.  As you may not know, my mind is tailored to biological sciences.  Physics, I only understand fundamentally, and Newtonian at best.  Is there an easy-to-read book where I can get an introductory feel of these teachings?

Did you scientifically validate any of your arguments? Such as that very argument that got you into a logical fallacy that tries to fly in the face of the laws of existence? These laws that can not possibly be written or broken but rather followed and subjected to require in order to exist? You are rejecting the scientific method by making up things as you go along without even being able to back yourself up. What do you expect when you say your GOD exists outside all that exists?

Okay, if to you what I'm saying is scientifically connected in some way, then perhaps, we need time off so that I can read some of these things and get back to you with a better understanding.  Are you a physicist of some sort?

That really proves how much of a fallacy it is. Besides, the concept is purely reliant on your opinion anyways. Other opinions already nullify it. Opinionated concepts are irrelevant.

The point is that nothing can adequately describe God except what has been revealed to us, especially through Christ.  We receive the Holy Spirit that we may grow in God more and comprehend Him more, but it takes forever to do so.  That's the idea.  No science, nothing in all of existence here can adequately describe Him or understand Him.

I don't believe in the concepts of GODS, it's simply not applicable what-so-ever regardless if an entity even existed. Either all things are GODS, or there are no GODS at all.

I'm asking when you were a Christian, what exactly was your idea of God?

You do understand the very contradiction of your post correct? If you have a concept in your head, you have fathomed it.

I can fathom only as much as I can fathom, but He is more.  He became incarnate to lift our minds to Him.

The argument here used however is merely an excuse to believe when it's existence has shown to be irrelevant, impossible, or subjected to the arguments above. It's more Carl Segan's Dragon, and that gets you nowhere in a debate.

It does get no one anywhere in the debate.  I feel like I'm only reiterating my definition.  If it's a logical fallacy, fine.  I think Hawking understood exactly the definition of God, and sees how theists can find God still compatible with what he solved.  He chose His words carefully.  He didn't disprove God, he simply feels God is unnecessary.

You need to get more realistic with your concept before it can be considered even plausible. BTW, you are getting handed the hammer because you keep making irrational and nonsensical arguments. There is so much dishonest discourse in your arguments that it's literally ridiculous.  :raised:  

That was an analogy.  When people live in a dumpster they don't know what smelling bad is.  When your whole life you think a certain way about existence and about God, you don't know what God really is, and I don't really think you know where I am coming from, and we're just talking past one another.

Please do realize though that there is nothing wrong with what you believe in. Just remember that getting into discussions with opposing views, use honest discourse and arguments.

And I too feel you really do care, but somehow either you or I am not getting it.  You accuse me of logical fallacy, but I think you are misrepresenting my ideas about God to begin with!

Perhaps, it's best we start all over.  What do you think Christians think God is?

Wow, there is so much delusion in that posted argument to where it's really not even worth responding to  lol And no, I don't just post information on parallels, I suggest you actually study your religion kiddo. You might also want to check up on the fact that people like Jesus were nearly a dime a dozen where most of that crap was common folklore. How dumb do you really think we are here? It's also not our problem that you can't even understand that you can't defy the rules that govern existence. Your head is simply in the clouds because you can't deal with reality. And I love the answer you gave in regards to "Did your GOD kill anything". Probably? EH? Did you ever even read genesis? And you call me arrogant/ignorant :crazy: Buy hey, Atheists will gladly accept your answers here today  lol. How does one create time since it would take time create time? :pop:


And I do find this funny:

The tragedy is this. That all my memories, all my loved ones, all what I know will be gone. Energy and matter can neither be created nor destroyed, but my whole life can.

This is straight from your own little typing fingers . BTW, then never will be technically GONE since they are just patterns of matter and energy themselves. Whether or not they remain intact is dependent on if you understand science of if you believe in fallacies because you fear reality.

[Gawen]

Wow, there is so much delusion in that posted argument to where it's really not even worth responding to  lol And no, I don't just post information on parallels, I suggest you actually study your religion kiddo. You might also want to check up on the fact that people like Jesus were nearly a dime a dozen where most of that crap was common folklore. How dumb do you really think we are here? It's also not our problem that you can't even understand that you can't defy the rules that govern existence. Your head is simply in the clouds because you can't deal with reality. And I love the answer you gave in regards to "Did your GOD kill anything". Probably? EH? Did you ever even read genesis? And you call me arrogant/ignorant ? And you even go into making fallacious self invented nonsense to rationalize your GODS creation of poisonous plants while telling everyone it's ok to EAT.. Damn, if that isn't attempted murder and genocide, what is?

Now you know why I gave up on him.

[Achronos]

Wow, there is so much delusion in that posted argument to where it's really not even worth responding to  lol And no, I don't just post information on parallels, I suggest you actually study your religion kiddo. You might also want to check up on the fact that people like Jesus were nearly a dime a dozen where most of that crap was common folklore. How dumb do you really think we are here? It's also not our problem that you can't even understand that you can't defy the rules that govern existence. Your head is simply in the clouds because you can't deal with reality. And I love the answer you gave in regards to "Did your GOD kill anything". Probably? EH? Did you ever even read genesis? And you call me arrogant/ignorant :crazy: Buy hey, Atheists will gladly accept your answers here today  lol. How does one create time since it would take time create time? :pop:

This makes God a man or material, instead of "greater" than the very creation He creates (beyond time, matter, and space).