God cannot exist...sue me!

[Achronos]

Wait...are you under the impression that Orthodoxy is based upon the Bible?  Or that Christianity's foundations are threatened in any way if the validity of the Bible is called into question?

[DJAkuma]

Wait...are you under the impression that Orthodoxy is based upon the Bible?  Or that Christianity's foundations are threatened in any way if the validity of the Bible is called into question?

Can you explain how orthodoxy isn't based on the bible or how christianity would even be more than a small cult if nobody thought of the bible as valid?

[Achronos]

"It seems obvious to me that the peculiar vapidity of New Atheist literature is simply a reflection of the more general vapidity of all public religious discourse these days, believing and unbelieving alike. In part, of course, this is because the modern media encourage only fragmentary, sloganeering, and emotive debates, but it is also because centuries of the incremental secularization of society have left us with a shared grammar that is perhaps no longer adequate to the kinds of claims that either reflective faith or reflective faithlessness makes.

The principal source of my melancholy, however, is my firm conviction that today’s most obstreperous infidels lack the courage, moral intelligence, and thoughtfulness of their forefathers in faithlessness. What I find chiefly offensive about them is not that they are skeptics or atheists; rather, it is that they are not skeptics at all and have purchased their atheism cheaply, with the sort of boorish arrogance that might make a man believe himself a great strategist because his tanks overwhelmed a town of unarmed peasants, or a great lover because he can afford the price of admission to a brothel. So long as one can choose one’s conquests in advance, taking always the paths of least resistance, one can always imagine oneself a Napoleon or a Casanova (and even better: the one without a Waterloo, the other without the clap).

But how long can any soul delight in victories of that sort? And how long should we waste our time with the sheer banality of the New Atheistsâ€"with, that is, their childishly Manichean view of history, their lack of any tragic sense, their indifference to the cultural contingency of moral “truths,” their wanton incuriosity, their vague babblings about “religion” in the abstract, and their absurd optimism regarding the future they long for?

I am notâ€"honestly, I am notâ€"simply being dismissive here. The utter inconsequentiality of contemporary atheism is a social and spiritual catastrophe. Something splendid and irreplaceable has taken leave of our cultureâ€"some great moral and intellectual capacity that once inspired the more heroic expressions of belief and unbelief alike. Skepticism and atheism are, at least in their highest manifestations, noble, precious, and even necessary traditions, and even the most fervent of believers should acknowledge that both are often inspired by a profound moral alarm at evil and suffering, at the corruption of religious institutions, at psychological terrorism, at injustices either prompted or abetted by religious doctrines, at arid dogmatisms and inane fideisms, and at worldly power wielded in the name of otherworldly goods. In the best kinds
of unbelief, there is something of the moral grandeur of the prophetsâ€"a deep and admirable abhorrence of those vicious idolatries that enslave minds and justify our worst cruelties.

But a true skeptic is also someone who understands that an attitude of critical suspicion is quite different from the glib abandonment of one vision of absolute truth for anotherâ€"say, fundamentalist Christianity for fundamentalist materialism or something vaguely and inaccurately called “humanism.” Hume, for instance, never traded one dogmatism for another, or one facile certitude for another. He understood how radical were the implications of the skepticism he recommended, and how they struck at the foundations not only of unthinking faith, but of proud rationality as well.

A truly profound atheist is someone who has taken the trouble to understand, in its most sophisticated forms, the belief he or she rejects, and to understand the consequences of that rejection. Among the New Atheists, there is no one of whom this can be said, and the movement as a whole has yet to produce a single book or essay that is anything more than an insipidly doctrinaire and appallingly ignorant diatribe."

- David Bentley Hart

[Sophus]

Among the New Atheists, there is no one of whom this can be said, and the movement as a whole has yet to produce a single book or essay that is anything more than an insipidly doctrinaire and appallingly ignorant diatribe.

Yet another apologist harping on tone so he doesn't have to deal with he content of any actually arguments put forth. Because I'm sure if he's read, say, Hitchen's "God is Not Great" he would have found the entire book was "Wah! God is a big dumb meany!" This whole blurb of his amounts to nothing more than an ad hominem and a generalization of whatever "New Atheists" are suppose to be. (As far as I can tell it describes modern atheists who are critical of religion, as oppose to some false non-existent cute n' cuddly teddy bear atheists who got in line and never said anything bad about religion, whom apologists get all nostalgic about. Sorry to say, but people have been calling BS on religion for centuries.)

[TheJackel]

You're saying "go back and read Genesis" as if I don't know what's in Genesis.  That's arrogance.  You're assuming I know nothing of my religion.  I've explained very clearly the context and allegory of "eat all plants" in that specific verse.  Now, you're just being defiant, or in denial, or simply an ass about it.

Incorrect. You tried to rationalize it's stupidity. The only person here being in denial is you..

"What did you think God is when you were a Christian,"

Before I educated myself, exactly what you think. Fortunately, my IQ went above 20 after 18 years of age. Doesn't take a genius to figure out this logical fallacy. And I do believe you are again trying to deflect with irrelevant arguments. Seriously, you need to stop trolling the discussion. If you don't know what a troll is, I suggest you google it.

I'm not trolling.  You're misrepresenting my beliefs.

Incorrect. You don't seem to even understand your position.

For example, the book of Revelation is a vision, with colorful metaphors in every line. Yet, that page makes light of "stars will fall from the sky"...

What does stating the obvious about starlight have to do with the discussion? Ahh yes, more deflection from the arguments posted.. Let us know when your god understands that plants don't grow before the existence of the sun!.

Or the smallest seed is the mustard seed. I guess he should have said orchid seed, assuming there were any orchids around. He could have been scientifically correct, but then you'd have entire chapters of the bible dedicated to scientific explanations.

The bible can't even get the order of events correct much less be worth anything scientifically. I can go through Genesis if you like and completely rip it apart.

Instead, A broad use of metaphors are used to illustrate concepts and ideas, so everyone can understand.

That's really all it is, just concepts and ideas that are inherently incorrect, contradictory , or just plane stupid.

Kinda like star trek, when the" flux veriton capacitor will emit tachyons to collapse the space-time graviton Talinberg Phenomenon" which was followed by the other guy saying "kinda like turning the faucet off on the sink"... Well no, stupid, not like that at all, but good enough.

It's more like "No stupid", The Earth wasn't here before the Sun, and insects have 6 legs, while plants can't grow or exist without sunlight! Plus many others not mentioned here.

BTW.. Did your GOD create Darkness and Light? Funny how there can only be one or the other.. Ahh, another fail.

This also got me to giggle lol. How can you have progression of thought without progression or processes? It's entirely moronic. It's right up there with the concept of preexisting existence so one can create existence in order for ones self to exist. Seriously, don't put yourself so low on the IQ meter for the sake of making circular arguments that make no logical sense. If you want to play for ignorance like many Christians do, go find some little kids to brainwash because you have come to the wrong place son!  :crazy: Do you know why ppl are getting stern with you? You intentionally play stupid. I mean, you have got to be playing stupid because I don't think anyone is really that dumb to make such an argument of pure intelligible nonsense.   . You sir have poor debating skills, and you actually think your arguments are worth something here on a forum where people actually use their brains.  

[Achronos]

Among the New Atheists, there is no one of whom this can be said, and the movement as a whole has yet to produce a single book or essay that is anything more than an insipidly doctrinaire and appallingly ignorant diatribe.

Yet another apologist harping on tone so he doesn't have to deal with he content of any actually arguments put forth. Because I'm sure if he's read, say, Hitchen's "God is Not Great" he would have found the entire book was "Wah! God is a big dumb meany!" This whole blurb of his amounts to nothing more than an ad hominem and a generalization of whatever "New Atheists" are suppose to be. (As far as I can tell it describes modern atheists who are critical of religion, as oppose to some false non-existent cute n' cuddly teddy bear atheists who got in line and never said anything bad about religion, whom apologists get all nostalgic about. Sorry to say, but people have been calling BS on religion for centuries.)

Oh, he gives a completely thorough treatment to their arguments in his newest book, as well as the rest of the article from which this quote was taken.  He longs for the days when atheists had reasonable arguments to consider.  So do I, frankly.  Atheism today is a sad state of affairs.

[Achronos]

Wait...are you under the impression that Orthodoxy is based upon the Bible?  Or that Christianity's foundations are threatened in any way if the validity of the Bible is called into question?

Can you explain how orthodoxy isn't based on the bible or how christianity would even be more than a small cult if nobody thought of the bible as valid?

Orthodoxy is an historical movement out of which the Bible came, not the other way around.  The New Testament is describing something that is already taking place and is written to churches that already exist.  It is not the source.

You can point out errors all day long, find every apparent logical inconsistency, every scientific fact it got wrong and you won't hear much from Orthodox Christians besides, "That's interesting."  Nothing is riding on the Bible for us.

[Sophus]

Atheism today is a sad state of affairs.

Riiiigggght... what exactly are you expecting it to be? Who are these old glory days atheists we should use as role models?

[Achronos]

Atheism today is a sad state of affairs.

Riiiigggght... what exactly are you expecting it to be? Who are these old glory days atheists we should use as role models?

I vote for Diagoras of Melos, Theodorus of Cyrene, Critias, Democritus and Strato of Lampsacus; but maybe that's just me.

[LegendarySandwich]

What makes the "New Atheist movement" a sad state of affairs, Achronos?

[TheJackel]

Wait...are you under the impression that Orthodoxy is based upon the Bible?  Or that Christianity's foundations are threatened in any way if the validity of the Bible is called into question?

Can you explain how orthodoxy isn't based on the bible or how christianity would even be more than a small cult if nobody thought of the bible as valid?

Orthodoxy is an historical movement out of which the Bible came, not the other way around.  The New Testament is describing something that is already taking place and is written to churches that already exist.  It is not the source.

You can point out errors all day long, find every apparent logical inconsistency, every scientific fact it got wrong and you won't hear much from Orthodox Christians besides, "That's interesting."  Nothing is riding on the Bible for us.

Do you know why that is ? It's because they don't care, and because they know they can't actually deal with them logically, or even on an honest level. Why do you think you are trained to use self inventive circular arguments .You being a prime example here!.  Only a really brainwashed victim or idiot would actually think the Bible was even remotely accurate or credible. And all religions are technically cults, 300 years of burning alone is enough to brand Christianity as a cult. the bible is 99% fictitious while the last 1% of truth only lies in that it was a man written book by more than 40 Authors. I wasted much of my life believing in Fictitious nonsense. BTW.. The Orthodoxy does a very piss poor job of describing how the bible came to be, in fact, much of it is fabricated. We know where the Authors of the bible got their inspirations from, and that was from other religions and folklore/beliefs. It's entirely a cut and paste form of creative writing to which is a text book example of servitude to power. People are easy to control once you have them emotionally bonded to an imaginary symbol of power and fear. How do you think brainwashing works?

You really want to educate yourself, read some books on the mechanics of brainwashing and then read the bible over again, and then watch and observe how churches operate and advertise. Pick up some fliers and you can easily tell how messed up it is. It's really that bad!

[TheJackel]

What makes the "New Atheist movement" a sad state of affairs, Achronos?

I think it's the emotionless attitude towards his beliefs, or the brutal bluntness of logic and reason that many theists like equivocate to something as bad as the symbol of Satan. Plus I think he's equivocating atheists to emotionless zombies because they don't believe in his lord Jesus or GOD.    I've had some pretty good discussions with Theists, but I would say this one was one of the worst I've had. However, I wasn't exactly being nice myself since much of the posts I've had were late at night after a long day of work. So I think my civility had broken down when aggravated by nonsensical and dishonest arguments.  

[Sophus]

Atheism today is a sad state of affairs.

Riiiigggght... what exactly are you expecting it to be? Who are these old glory days atheists we should use as role models?

I vote for Diagoras of Melos, Theodorus of Cyrene, Critias, Democritus and Strato of Lampsacus; but maybe that's just me.

So I should be... Greek? Dead? I don't get it.

[Achronos]

Before I educated myself, exactly what you think. Fortunately, my IQ went above 20 after 18 years of age. Doesn't take a genius to figure out this logical fallacy. And I do believe you are again trying to deflect with irrelevant arguments. Seriously, you need to stop trolling the discussion. If you don't know what a troll is, I suggest you google it.

Another ad hominem. You seem ill equipped to handle debate without insults.

Incorrect. You don't seem to even understand your position.

Physician, heal thyself.

What does stating the obvious about starlight have to do with the discussion? Ahh yes, more deflection from the arguments posted.. Let us know when your god understands that plants don't grow before the existence of the sun!.

Even if I were a literal interpreter Genesis, your argument is fairly weak; plants don't need the Sun, they need light, warmth, water, and nutrients (all of which, mind you, can be done nowadays without the plant ever encountering natural sunlight).  If one takes the timeline literally, then light came first - hence, a crucial building block for plant life.  Leave the simpleton arguments at home.

The bible can't even get the order of events correct much less be worth anything scientifically. I can go through Genesis if you like and completely rip it apart.

You obviously don't understand its intention, so why would we want you to make a fool of yourself?  You don't walk into a Kindergarten and mock the children for being less than 5' tall; they're not supposed to be that tall yet at that age.

That's really all it is, just concepts and ideas that are inherently incorrect, contradictory , or just plane stupid.

It's more like "No stupid", The Earth wasn't here before the Sun, and insects have 6 legs, while plants can't grow or exist without sunlight! Plus many others not mentioned here.

See my comment above.

BTW.. Did your GOD create Darkness and Light? Funny how there can only be one or the other.. Ahh, another fail.

You're not very good at physics, are you?  Only light was created, since darkness is, by definition, an absence of light; you probably think, scientifically, that "cold" exists, too

WTF? Dude, lay off the drugs man.

Ad hominem.  These seem to pop up a lot with you.

If you can't even make intelligible arguments, please don't make any at all. And it didn't even answer the questions  :blink:  it's One load of Delusional pile of mind masturbation.

"Getting stern."  LOL.  Are you the teacher who's trying to make up for the fact that people don't naturally respect them, so instead you lower yourself to insults and bullying?  How passe!

Good to know he doesn't exist.

Not in the way that you think He does.

You want to believe your deity is made of nothing (non-material).. Go ahead and do so.
You want to believe your god exist outside of place of existence (nowhere, or nonexistence) you go ahead and think that.
You want to believe that your GOD doesn't need information to know anything, or even it's own existence.. You go ahead and think that.

We believe what has been revealed, in word, in deed, in testimony, in tradition, in truth.  If we're wrong, there's been no harm to you; if we're right, well... Don't say you weren't warned.

Attaching qualities of non-existence and nothing to something is exactly a prime example of the quality of the brainwashing many theists receive. It's the teaching of idiocy in order inject blind faith without question. And that is why so many of you make up your own imaginative nonsense. That is dishonest as you can possibly ever get  :shake:

The ability of people to believe in things that they cannot experience empirically, and which challenge existing notions of existence, has been a driving force not only in religion, but in science as well.  For people of science, those beliefs lead to hypotheses, experiments, and either proof or rejection; for people of faith, those beliefs lead to (hopefully) a good and productive life in a community of faith, and eternal joy once we're freed of the present existence.

[Achronos]

Do you know why that is ? It's because they don't care, and because they know they can't actually deal with them logically, or even on an honest level.

Who's "they"?  Orthodox theologians that you've obviously never read?  Anyway, this actually proves my point, they don't really "care" because they don't have to.  Nothing is hingeing on the Bible's authenticity for Orthodoxy.

Why do you think you are trained to use self inventive circular arguments .You being a prime example here!.  Only a really brainwashed victim or idiot would actually think the Bible was even remotely accurate or credible.

Ad hominem. Nice. Am I trained or am I self-inventing?  Or did I train myself?

You being a prime example! Only a really brainwashed victim or idiot would actually think the Bible was even remotely accurate or credible.

I'm sorry, did I say this somewhere?  I'm a prime example because, what, I've been appealing to the accuracy of the Bible for something?  Where and when?

And all religions are technically cults, 300 years of burning alone is enough to brand Christianity as a cult.

LOL.  You've demonstrated yourself to be a poor historian (and poorer philosopher), so why should this statement be treated as a credible one?

the bible is 99% fictitious while the last 1% of truth only lies in that it was a man written book by more than 40 Authors.

You do understand that your percentages are (a) not grounded in reality (not even from an Atheist's perspective), and (b) not worth the electrons they've wasted in their existence. Sounds like somebody needs to go back to Jr. High and get re-acquainted with basic math and percentages...

I wasted much of my life believing in Fictitious nonsense.

Sounds like you're still in that phase to me. "Tis better to have loved and lost then never loved at all."

BTW.. The Orthodoxy does a very piss poor job of describing how the bible came to be, in fact, much of it is fabricated.

Which source from "The Orthodoxy" are you referring to?

We know where the Authors of the bible got their inspirations from, and that was from other religions and folklore/beliefs.

Surely you don't have documents younger than the Bible in mind?  If you have more ancient sources that have parallels with the Bible, I'd love to read them.

It's entirely a cut and paste form of creative writing to which is a text book example of servitude to power.[ People are easy to control once you have them emotionally bonded to an imaginary symbol of power and fear. How do you think brainwashing works?

I'm not sure how it works but I assure you, my conversion from atheism wasn't because I somehow got brainwashed as an adult.  If anyone comes across as a rabid, fundamentalist with hints of having been brainwashed, I think it's you my friend. You obviously have no clue how it works, since you've misapplied the label and certainly the methodology.

BTW Your regurgitating a tired rhetoric that has been debunked by even the most radical Biblical critics doesn't endear you to anyone  such as myself.

You really want to educate yourself, read some books on the mechanics of brainwashing and then read the bible over again, and then watch and observe how churches operate and advertise. Pick up some fliers and you can easily tell how messed up it is. It's really that bad!

LOL. I'm not sure how it works but I assure you, my conversion from atheism wasn't because I somehow got brainwashed as an adult.  If anyone comes across as a rabid, fundamentalist with hints of having been brainwashed, I think it's you my friend. Your posts reek of it.