The Futile Arguments Thread

[defendor]

The truth thing, I am sorry for imposing, but am kinda glad, your thought brings up a few nice points.

I did say they lived due to grace but also, I did say that they were punished in the very next sentenced.

And the main thing i noticed was about what God actually said.  This is the mood of post modernism. In the same schema of text (the bible) that says the serpent said... the Bible also says that he is a liar.  So I want to make this clear, the Bible testifies to the initial sin of Adam and Eve and the deception of the serpent.

As for the death as punishment, thats a pretty interesting thought, but think of it like this: if you say to a person who has never been punched let alone in the face, "if you do something bad, I'm gonna punch you in the face." Do you think that they are able to understand what that means, or are they going to have be punched in the face to know that it is a bad thing?

As for the mood of post-modernism, if we are going to take the meanings out of words and define our own reality, we will be acting in the same mood that Adam and Eve were.  The serpent said, 'did God really say...? Did he really mean...?"  So it is a complete hashing of logistical reality, they obeyed what they wanted to, which was in direct defiance of objective truth and reality.  Think of it like this, upon eating of the Tree of "knowledge of Good and Evil" they were expected to define what Good is and what Evil is for themselves.  But they already knew what Good was, for God had declared all things Good. So as the narrative continues, Adam and Eve were conscious of their sin, and hid from God.  So they had understood what guilt had been laid bare.  They knew what the implications of their actions were.  The deception was in being able to define moral reality (tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil), but this did not make them equal with God for they were still under the jurisdiction of God.  

So even in the schema of the Gospel narrative, the initial sin is first and foremost disobeying God, but noticed how they were deceived.  The serpent took the power out of the words that God had provisioned, and gave that power to man.  So instead of God being the one who defines reality, it becomes ourselves.  This is what most Christians call, worshiping ourselves or idolatry or pride.  All of which exalt our beings over the being of the God of the universe.  But God says, I am the Lord God, there is no other, and his justice is destroying these false gods, and his grace is letting the people live.

Satan doesn't tempt you into doing something bad, he tempts you into doing what you want.  But not everything we want is bad, but it is mostly selfish, which excludes God.  Since we were created by God, for God, He has dominion over us.  Some he calls back to his presence, others he leaves bare.  Not a bit of injustice either way.

[Stevil]

Satan doesn't tempt you into doing something bad, he tempts you into doing what you want.

It seems to me that God and Satan are one in the same, just seperate sides of the same coin.

The Adam and Eve fable is used to explain humans ability to make decisions, this fable required both God and Satan. Without Satan's influence God would have failed in its desire to gift humanity "free will".
Without the draw away from God as given by Satan, God would never be able to distinguish the good souls from the bad, God would never be able to reward the good with eternal afterlife in "heaven". With "life" being eternal, this period on earth from a Christian perspective would be pointless and would have no purpose. It seems that purpose and free will require both Satan and God.
Without the threat of eternal damnation, hell fire and torture in hell, many Christians would not be Christians, they would not turn to God as their saviour, instead they would go about their lives as Atheists with a value system that is likely more tolerant, more just, more compassionate and more loving than that offered by the strict Christian moral system.

I feel Christians focus too poorly on Satan, Satan is one of the most significant and key ingrediants in Christainity, without Satan God would be impotent. Christians really by rights should praise Satan as well. It seems that Satan is either God or is perfoming a selfless job that is crucial in God's plan. It is unfair that Satan is shown so much distain and hatred from God's worshippers. I wonder if they kiss and make up once they get to the afterlife?

[defendor]

I think the essence of your argument is the concept of a "necessary evil."  Or that the ends justify the means.  But when you say this, you have to assume that God created evil, something contradictory to his nature. So the allegation of this, is a paradox that not only can't be conceptualized but is not in accordance with any scripture. God created free will, but the necessity of Good allows the possibility of evil.  So as God created Good, and said everything was Good, Adam had the capability to turn away from this due to his capability of Free will. So as things were intended for Good, you can't say that he really meant for it to turn bad.  

I think it was C.S. Lewis who said this, not sure, but "our world is not the best world, but the best way to the best world."  In a sense, the allowing of evil is providential for God to proclaim his sovereignty but is not vital for exclaiming his Glory.  His glory was on the onset of Creation. But God does use things of evil to further his plan of Good.  See Joseph in Genesis "what you meant for evil, God meant for good"

But this also brings the thought, if God created evil, and you aren't turning to God, why aren't you experiencing a torrent of wrath and evil?

[dloubet]

Satan doesn't tempt you into doing something bad, he tempts you into doing what you want.  But not everything we want is bad, but it is mostly selfish, which excludes God.  Since we were created by God, for God, He has dominion over us.  Some he calls back to his presence, others he leaves bare.  Not a bit of injustice either way.

Interesting. We were supposedly created by the god for the god, and it has dominion over us. Can you point out any way that such a state is not completely and utterly selfish on the part of the god? Apparently the god wanted to make us. Does this mean the god character was tempted by the Satan character to do it? Is the Satan character further tempting the god character to reward some of us and punish others according to its whim?

And by dominion, do you mean the god is the biggest bully on the block and thus can do whatever it wants with us?

[defendor]

Check out the Book of Job.

[LegendarySandwich]

Check out the Book of Job.

You mean, the book where God let one of his most devout worshipers be tortured mercilessly because of a dare?

[Davin]

Check out the Book of Job.

You mean, the book where God let one of his most devout worshipers be tortured mercilessly because of a dare?

Don't forget the killing of his family.

[Stevil]

I think the essence of your argument is the concept of a "necessary evil."  Or that the ends justify the means.  But when you say this, you have to assume that God created evil, something contradictory to his nature. So the allegation of this, is a paradox that not only can't be conceptualized but is not in accordance with any scripture.

What I am suggesting is to look at the Bible from the perspective of Satan.
If there were no Satan, how would this impact the stories e.g. the apple incident?
Satan's involvement seems too perfect, too coordinated with God's plan to introduce free will.
Where would free will be without Satan or Evil? What would be the point of this test on earth?
I would say that Satan as described with the bible is the most important character other than god and it seems that they are working together in unison towards a common goal, sorting the good people from the bad. They are so much in unison that I would say they are not only best buddies but that they are actually the same entity.

I actually think that if God and Satan exist then all the scriptures are likely inspired by Satan rather than god, hence the unison of God and Satan as depicted in the bible. People adhering to the moralities of the bible are actually acting against god's will and towards the deciept of Satan. All the scriptures (Christian, Hindu, Muslim etc) could all be Satan's work. Hence the conflict, the opposing beliefs, the intolerance, the unjust actions, the hardline moralities. Hence a god who is all loving, should be worshipped and praised and unquestioned and yet kills and deceives.

I would suggest that all theists are following Satan's decipt, going against their own nature and instead looking to scriptures for answers on how to behave. Atheists on the other hand are more in tune with objective morality, looking to reason, logic and their inner conscience to guide them. This way atheists treat people as their equals, accepting different beliefs, different cultures, different races, different sexes, different lifestyles with the utmost respect.

The requirement that one must believe is a requirement within the bible (which was inspired by Satan) and hence should not be taken as true. A truly loving, forging and just god simply does not require worshippers and does not require people to believe in it. This is a fallicy and substanciates my thoughts that if there were a god then the bible is a deceipt contrary to the will of that god.

[defendor]

Job is an interesting Book.  It is written in a Hebrew poetic prose, in conjunction with other books of poetry such as Ecclesiastes and Psalms.  The poetry is to show the inner struggle of a believer in dire circumstances of suffering in such an organic and human way that relates to those going through struggles.  I should mention, the bible says "glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance;  perseverance, character; and character, hope." This is the hope we have in Christ "if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory. I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us."

What happened to Job may seem unjust, but what did Job do so good that God owed Job anything?  He was a righteous man and God's glory was to be revealed in Job, whether through trial or triumph.  This shows God's sovereignty, to be feared as Abraham and the Apostles who saw Jesus walk on the water. The bible says the apostles who saw Jesus walking on water were terrified.  So God is sovereign over everything, that nothing is in our life that God doesn't permit, for His Glory. I mean that sounds pretty egotistical, but when we see it from our perspective it normally does.  If deep down in our beings of the elect (those who are saved) want to be with Christ, but the only thing that stands in our way is us, why wouldn't God allow suffering so that we may "die to ourselves, and rise with Christ"?

Stevil- I always appreciate your honesty, and I don't mind having disagreements if we're honest about it

If Satan and God are at odds, then there has to be an objective and absolute standard of Morality for them to be at odds.  Whichever one you say is Good or Evil is up to you.

The bible makes many notions that Satan is the Evil one, the arch enemy, and tempted Jesus.  So throughout the gospel, Jesus(God) and Satan are at odds.

So if the bible is inspired by Satan, it would not depict him as the outcast.

As for other holy texts, the bible says that if any other man or angel comes preaching a gospel other than the one the apostles preached, let him be eternally condemned (demon).  So the other Holy Texts such as Islam or Mormonism, who were revealed by angels, could be Satanically inspired.  By the way, Mohammed was noted as being 'possessed', whatever that means...?? ha

If Satan were real, and he was truly evil, wouldn't you think he would want you to sympathize with him against God?

[Stevil]

If Satan and God are at odds, then there has to be an objective and absolute standard of Morality for them to be at odds.  Whichever one you say is Good or Evil is up to you.

I am not advocating that Satan is the good one. It could be either or. I mean, Satan or YHWH are just names. The actual name of the good one as opposed to the bad one is beside the point. For arguments sake lets just say that God (YHWH) is the good one. The point is the description of God and the role each character plays out in the story. To non Christians the story seems dubious. The God character although we are told is perfect, appears to tell lies e.g. telling Adam and Eve that they will die if they eat the apple, kills a bunch of Egyptians (excuse me if I am wrong here, I haven't read it, just heared about it) just to prove that he/she exists and is more powerfull than their gods. Kills almost everyone (great flood) in order to start again. It just doesn't seem right.
Then we have the Devil (Satan) character that is the source of evil and turns people against God (the apple story) but then it seems that it was all God's plan, to give free will and let people choose their destiny. So here to me it seems that the two characters are working together towards a common goal.

If Satan had in inch of intelligence then he/she would not work towards God's plan but would work contrary. The best way would be to distribute misinformation. Make it believable but just misleading enough to cause disruption and conflict. To me this seems to be the effect of the respective scirptures. I am not saying that this is actually what happened. It just seems to me that no one actually knows. There is no evidence and nothing other than theories to suggest what is the truth here. I have heard people argue that the bible is the word of God, I have heard people argue that the bible is the word of people. I am now suggesting an alternative, maybe the bible is the deciption of Satan. It seems to me that we cannot know what the source is and hence the book cannot be trusted.

With regards to an "absolute standard of Morality" it has taken me much time, thought and discussion to try and work out what Christians mean when they say this. So far I think that they don't mean that everyone just knows what is right and wrong and this is obviously the case because people often disagree. So what do Christians mean by this? I am currently thinking that they mean the absolute standard of morality is that which is presented within the pages of the bible. That which they call absolute or objective is that which is the opinion of the God as described in the bible. Is this true? Is this what Christian's mean by absolute standard or Morality? or objective morality?

The bible makes many notions that Satan is the Evil one, the arch enemy, and tempted Jesus.  So throughout the gospel, Jesus(God) and Satan are at odds.

That's not how I see it. To me it seems that Satan is a crucial ingrediant in the bible story, a crucial factor in God's plan to bestow free will and choice for or away from God. If there is no away, then there is no choice, right?

So if the bible is inspired by Satan, it would not depict him as the outcast.

Its intent is not to make Satan the hero, as I said you could simply keep the original story and switch the names Satan and YHWH. Satan most likely does not care for worship or praise of humans. Its intent is to misinform God's followers, to turn them against Gods plan. Its intent is to harm God and ruin God's plan. Potentially to be disruptive for people on earth. I feel the various conflicting religions based on their scriptures are disruptive and are causing great conflict.

If Satan were real, and he was truly evil, wouldn't you think he would want you to sympathize with him against God?

As above, I don't think that would be the ultimate goal. If Satan were to keep his/her eyes on the goal and not be side tracked by selfish desires then the deception would be more likely to suceed.

[LegendarySandwich]

Job is an interesting Book.  It is written in a Hebrew poetic prose, in conjunction with other books of poetry such as Ecclesiastes and Psalms.  The poetry is to show the inner struggle of a believer in dire circumstances of suffering in such an organic and human way that relates to those going through struggles.

Yeah, not really. It's a crappy story, and I don't think many people relate to Job.

I should mention, the bible says "glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance;  perseverance, character; and character, hope." This is the hope we have in Christ "if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory. I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us."

Why is the suffering necessary for this? Also, Job's family and servants were killed during this dare -- it was part of Job's suffering.

What happened to Job may seem unjust, but what did Job do so good that God owed Job anything?

...Wow.

He was a righteous man and God's glory was to be revealed in Job, whether through trial or triumph.

God's glory that lets his most devout followers be tortured mercilessly and his family and servants killed?

This shows God's sovereignty, to be feared as Abraham and the Apostles who saw Jesus walk on the water. The bible says the apostles who saw Jesus walking on water were terrified.

And yet, we're also supposed to love him with all our hearts at the same time. Kind of mixed messages there.

So God is sovereign over everything, that nothing is in our life that God doesn't permit, for His Glory. I mean that sounds pretty egotistical, but when we see it from our perspective it normally does. If deep down in our beings of the elect (those who are saved) want to be with Christ, but the only thing that stands in our way is us, why wouldn't God allow suffering so that we may "die to ourselves, and rise with Christ"?

Again, why is the suffering and death of his family necessary?

[defendor]

God is allowing Satan to work for a common goal, - "God's Glory"

God works all things in revealing his glory.  He allowed free will, and created everything as Good.  Adam and Eve didn't need to experience Bad to know what is Good.

Legendary Sandwich -You didn't answer my question

"what did Job do so Good that God owed Job?"  When God created Job, allowed him to prosper, and brought him everything he had. The lord gives and the lord takes away.

Suffering isn't necessary.  Its a broken world we live in and God uses it for his Greater purpose.  

I think both of these thoughts are essentially the same, I don't know how much this will be, but maybe it could shed some light

http://www.desiringgod.org/resource-lib ... lls-in-god

[Stevil]

I guess what I am asking is - Why would I forgo my values and instead follow the values taught in the bible.
I trust myself in that my intent is to be a good person, I am not always good but I am trying, sometimes my actions are misguided but I learn lessons and end up a better person.

How can the bible make me an even better person?

I don't know the true intent behind the creation of the bible, was it to control people, was it a deception, was it God's word?

How can me thinking that homosexuals are sinners make me a better person than I am today? Why should I not simply follow my values that I have developed over the many years of my life? My values of respect, equality, non judgement, love and acceptance. Would I really be improving myself by thinking that women are here to support men, by thinking that Christians shouldn't marry non Christians, that children should not be taught sex education, that people shouldn't practice safe sex. How do these things make me a better person?

[JoeBobSmith]

this makes sense

[wildfire_emissary]

Suffering isn't necessary.  Its a broken world we live in and God uses it for his Greater purpose.  

Even IF this were true, I will still take Ivan Karamazov's stand. I will not accept.

It's not that I don't accept God, you must understand; it's the world created by Him I don't and cannot accept.