The Futile Arguments Thread

[LegendarySandwich]

Is this question really making a statement?
If given free will/choice, how is the knowledge what one will choose not free will?

I have to say, I can't really see a problem with AD's logic here.

[Tokage]

But how can free will exist with an omniscient God?

Is this question really making a statement?
If given free will/choice, how is the knowledge what one will choose not free will?

Simple:
If you walk to a fork in your path and God already know's you will go left, how can you do anything but go left?
Can you go right? If so God isn't omniscient, if not then you are by definition without free will.
How are you anything but a character in a book that's already been written? Please explain to me how you can consider that free will.
If you're actions are already pre-determined, how can you have free will?

[AnimatedDirt]

But how can free will exist with an omniscient God?

Is this question really making a statement?
If given free will/choice, how is the knowledge what one will choose not free will?

Simple:
If you walk to a fork in your path and God already know's you will go left, how can you do anything but go left?
Can you go right? If so God isn't omniscient, if not then you are by definition without free will.
How are you anything but a character in a book that's already been written? Please explain to me how you can consider that free will.
If you're actions are already pre-determined, how can you have free will?

This is so silly.  So just because He knows your CHOICE removes the fact that you chose?
Pre-known does not equal pre-determined.

[Tokage]

Simple:
If you walk to a fork in your path and God already know's you will go left, how can you do anything but go left?
Can you go right? If so God isn't omniscient, if not then you are by definition without free will.
How are you anything but a character in a book that's already been written? Please explain to me how you can consider that free will.
If you're actions are already pre-determined, how can you have free will?[/quote]
This is so silly.  So just because He knows your CHOICE removes the fact that you chose?
Pre-known does not equal pre-determined.[/quote]

Yes, and I just explained to you why, and you neglected to address the question, so I will try again, its very simple actually.

If this God knows whether you'll chose to go left or right before you make that decision, how can you make anything but that choice?
You are by definition without free will.
What you're saying is equivalent to someone saying: "Just because JK Rowling wrote the books, doesn't mean Harry Potter didn't have a choice what he wanted to do, pre-know does not equal pre-determined"

Please address my question and explain to me how you are able to have free will with this system.

You're right on one level: Pre-know is not necessarily pre-determined, that depends on whether or not the one who know's can be wrong. If they cannot, then they are essentially forcing the outcome to be what they already know, because we've established that they CAN NOT be wrong. Do you understand?
Unless you're saying you're God can be wrong?

(I messed up the formatting on the quoting a bit I think, I hope you're still able to understand it)

[Whitney]

This is so silly.  So just because He knows your CHOICE removes the fact that you chose?
Pre-known does not equal pre-determined.

If I know before I create something that it is going to have certain characteristics then by continuting to create that something I have pre-determined what it will be.

In order for choice to be protected while maintaining foreknowledge god would know all possible paths I might choose but wouldn't know the path I will walk on till I'm actually walking.

I have a paper about this somewhere from when I took philosophy of religion...though I doubt I'll be able to find it because I think it's in one of the many boxes of research materials/papers we have saved.

[defendor]

On the question of Free Will- I believe we have an aspect of Free Will, but not to be completely autonomous.  For instance, you didn't choose to be born, you didn't choose your family, you didn't choose where you were born, you didn't choose your intelligence, etc.  So we do have free will, but it is in the confines of a sovereign God.  God allows certain things and keeps certain things still.  This is the difference between Total Depravity and Utter Depravity.  For instance, Hitler was totally depraved, but we could make the case he could've been a whole lot worse.  So we do have free will, but it isn't an all inclusive will that makes us our definer of reality.  There is a uniform reality and we all exist as a part of it.  Idk God's providential plan or how it works for I live in the confines of time.  He lives on the outside, so the perspective is different.  But God's providence extends for us to be able to choose certain paths within a moral boundary of God's supreme will.


Stevil-
The authority of a Moral law has to be an external force that is ultimate good from which we can base our individual notions of Good off of. - God
The objective morals are written on every mans heart by God to regard things as good and things as evil.  For instance, why do you define good and evil? and How?

Is homosexuality a sin? Yes.  Why? it defies God's creative order and is unnatural to reproductive society.  I think bonobo chimps engage in homosexuality as well, but not in intercourse, as I am aware of.  But then you see a lack of moral law and the acceptance of such even with animals.  So God designed a way to exist, and this is in direct defiance of God's will.  Also, from every homosexual I have noticed, there has always been either a lack of a Father figure, or an abusive Father figure.  So again, unnatural.  I sympathize with those in such positions, I believe they can be saved, and some are saved, but are instructed to leave their life of sin.

If someone doesn't have objective values, they still paint their own world black and white, but have the ability to change it constantly without ever scratching any discourse of objective morality.

There is a difference between innate worth and societal norms.  There is an innate value placed on Humans, and culture is a completely different turkey.  So as our culture progresses, there have been many movements to accept the intrinsic value of every man, i.e. the civil rights movement of the 60's.  If there is no objective moral standard that gives equal rights to all humans, then they were simply defying the law and needed to be treated with justice, thus no injustice would be present.  But I'm sure you personally disagree, but on no standard can you exclaim truth without objectivity even with morality.  If there was no such thing as morality, then how could we ever know what it was or who was in violation of it?  So I refer back to my initial point, how and why do you define morals?

[Tokage]

On the question of Free Will- I believe we have an aspect of Free Will, but not to be completely autonomous.  For instance, you didn't choose to be born, you didn't choose your family, you didn't choose where you were born, you didn't choose your intelligence, etc.

Actually we do get to choose our intelligence to an extent based on how hard you work, and your desire to gain knowledge.

 

So we do have free will, but it is in the confines of a sovereign God.  God allows certain things and keeps certain things still.  This is the difference between Total Depravity and Utter Depravity.  For instance, Hitler was totally depraved, but we could make the case he could've been a whole lot worse.  So we do have free will, but it isn't an all inclusive will that makes us our definer of reality.  There is a uniform reality and we all exist as a part of it.  Idk God's providential plan or how it works for I live in the confines of time.  He lives on the outside, so the perspective is different.  But God's providence extends for us to be able to choose certain paths within a moral boundary of God's supreme will.


Stevil-
The authority of a Moral law has to be an external force that is ultimate good from which we can base our individual notions of Good off of. - God
The objective morals are written on every mans heart by God to regard things as good and things as evil.  For instance, why do you define good and evil? and How?

Is homosexuality a sin? Yes.  Why? it defies God's creative order and is unnatural to reproductive society.  I think bonobo chimps engage in homosexuality as well, but not in intercourse, as I am aware of.  But then you see a lack of moral law and the acceptance of such even with animals.  So God designed a way to exist, and this is in direct defiance of God's will.  Also, from every homosexual I have noticed, there has always been either a lack of a Father figure, or an abusive Father figure.  So again, unnatural.  I sympathize with those in such positions, I believe they can be saved, and some are saved, but are instructed to leave their life of sin.

If someone doesn't have objective values, they still paint their own world black and white, but have the ability to change it constantly without ever scratching any discourse of objective morality.

There is a difference between innate worth and societal norms.  There is an innate value placed on Humans, and culture is a completely different turkey.  So as our culture progresses, there have been many movements to accept the intrinsic value of every man, i.e. the civil rights movement of the 60's.  If there is no objective moral standard that gives equal rights to all humans, then they were simply defying the law and needed to be treated with justice, thus no injustice would be present.  But I'm sure you personally disagree, but on no standard can you exclaim truth without objectivity even with morality.  If there was no such thing as morality, then how could we ever know what it was or who was in violation of it?  So I refer back to my initial point, how and why do you define morals?

How in the WORLD does any of this address the initial question of free will whitney and myself posed?  
You just spent 4 paragraphs dancing around the question and providing white noise, that amounts to absolutely nothing.

How can free will exist with an omniscient God??
If he know's what you're going to do before you do it, and can not be wrong, how can free will exist?

[AnimatedDirt]

If I know before I create something that it is going to have certain characteristics then by continuting to create that something I have pre-determined what it will be.

In a sense, I agree with you totally.  God knew that by creating a being with absolute free will, there would be danger.
Speaking as if we agree God exists:  God set out to create a free will agent, humanity.  He already had the example of Lucifer/Satan that already brought sin/pride into existence.  Prior to this (we assume as we have no other information) Evil did not exist, but only in concept of going against God.

If God set out to create a being that He could love and that being could love back by its own ability to choose to love, then there would be complications.  No doubt.  The point then stands to reason (if God is really God as defined) then it is impossible to create a being with full freewill knowledge without risk that this being will choose against God which is the choice for Evil.  Knowing this, God's plan to save His created was set before He created us.  The plan was relayed to Adam and Eve (implied in Genesis 3:21) and so instead of dooming all of humanity to the sins of Adam and Eve (which they were doomed as such), God's plan was banking (heh) on the fact that Man COULD choose God despite their sin.

In order for choice to be protected while maintaining foreknowledge god would know all possible paths I might choose but wouldn't know the path I will walk on till I'm actually walking.

I disagree and again goes back to the point of simply knowing the specific choice from the possible choices does not remove the fact that the human (in this case) chose on its own.  It doesn't remove the fact that it chose.  God did not "hide" one to influence the choice for the other, as some have suggested God "should have done".  Both choices were set out.  In fact, the snake(Satan speaking through) made one choice more desireable by questioning God's exact words.

[Recusant]

Is homosexuality a sin? Yes. Why? it defies God's creative order and is unnatural to reproductive society. I think bonobo chimps engage in homosexuality as well, but not in intercourse, as I am aware of. But then you see a lack of moral law and the acceptance of such even with animals. So God designed a way to exist, and this is in direct defiance of God's will. Also, from every homosexual I have noticed, there has always been either a lack of a Father figure, or an abusive Father figure. So again, unnatural. I sympathize with those in such positions, I believe they can be saved, and some are saved, but are instructed to leave their life of sin.

How would one know that a bonobo was engaging in homosexuality if they didn't engage in homosexual intercourse?  That just doesn't make any sense. Not only that, but it's just plain incorrect.  Below is a quote from a scientist who has studied bonobos.

From Why Bonobos Will Save the World by Vanessa Woods:

Bonobos have gay sex. For bonobos, sex is a mechanism to reduce tension. And you can't talk about two females rubbing clitorises together until they orgasm in documentaries, intelligent design classes, or to right wing demographics who believe homosexuality is unnatural.

Homosexuality is very common in the natural world:

From The Natural "Crime Against Nature" by Scott Bidstrup:

Lest you are tempted to believe that all of this is highly unusual and well out of the ordinary, you're in for quite a surprise. Homosexual behavior is not only common, but even more common in other species than in humans. While numbers are hard to come by, there are a few that present some interesting patterns. In ostriches, male homosexuality is much more common than bisexuality, but among mule deer, bisexuality is more common than homosexuality. Among our closest living relatives, the bonobo chimpanzees, few if any are either exclusively heterosexual or homosexual. Indeed, all that have been observed are exclusively permanently bisexual.

You're just plain wrong.  Homosexuality is natural in people just as it is in other animals.  I've known plenty of homosexuals who grew up in "normal" families, so your anecdotal evidence that homosexuality has something to do with an absent or dysfunctional father figure is not pertinent.

Jesus said nothing at all pertaining to homosexuality.  In the New Testament, any passage pertaining to the subject was written by Paul, who never spoke with Jesus about homosexuality.  Paul was a Jew and was parroting ancient Jewish law regarding homosexuals, rather than conveying something Jesus said on the subject.

[defendor]

I did say, that I'm aware of

You're just plain wrong. Homosexuality is natural in people just as it is in other animals. I've known plenty of homosexuals who grew up in "normal" families, so your anecdotal evidence that homosexuality has something to do with an absent or dysfunctional father figure is not pertinent.

Jesus said nothing at all pertaining to homosexuality. In the New Testament, any passage pertaining to the subject was written by Paul, who never spoke with Jesus about homosexuality. Paul was a Jew and was parroting ancient Jewish law regarding homosexuals, rather than conveying something Jesus said on the subject.

Its also in my nature to have sex with as many girls as possible, but I don't do it.  Some people prefer to eat people, that doesn't mean you have to.  Some people feel the need to murder, so are they wrong?  Do you do everything you "feel"?

How in the WORLD does any of this address the initial question of free will whitney and myself posed?  
You just spent 4 paragraphs dancing around the question and providing white noise, that amounts to absolutely nothing.

How can free will exist with an omniscient God??
If he know's what you're going to do before you do it, and can not be wrong, how can free will exist?

Only the first paragraph was addressed to Free will.  Everything else was addressed to Stevil.  Hence the Stevil- before my text.  But, I'm not a full supporter of complete free will, for there are things you can't choose.  Read again, So we do have free will, but it is in the confines of a sovereign God. God allows certain things and keeps certain things still. This is the difference between Total Depravity and Utter Depravity. For instance, Hitler was totally depraved, but we could make the case he could've been a whole lot worse. So we do have free will, but it isn't an all inclusive will that makes us our definer of reality. There is a uniform reality and we all exist as a part of it. Idk God's providential plan or how it works for I live in the confines of time. He lives on the outside, so the perspective is different. But God's providence extends for us to be able to choose certain paths within a moral boundary of God's supreme will.  There is a limit to our Free will.  

I don't believe everything I have done or will do has been chosen for me before I do it regardless of me, but the foreknowledge doesn't discredit the choice itself.  How could it?

[Tokage]

First of all, I'd like to say how I absolutely love how you ignore answering my example, because you simply have no answer for it. Why have you still neglected to do so? Nonetheless I want to address your response to whitney:

In a sense, I agree with you totally.

O___O.....

 

God knew that by creating a being with absolute free will, there would be danger.

..... :brick:

[LegendarySandwich]

I did say, that I'm aware of

You're just plain wrong. Homosexuality is natural in people just as it is in other animals. I've known plenty of homosexuals who grew up in "normal" families, so your anecdotal evidence that homosexuality has something to do with an absent or dysfunctional father figure is not pertinent.

Jesus said nothing at all pertaining to homosexuality. In the New Testament, any passage pertaining to the subject was written by Paul, who never spoke with Jesus about homosexuality. Paul was a Jew and was parroting ancient Jewish law regarding homosexuals, rather than conveying something Jesus said on the subject.

Its also in my nature to have sex with as many girls as possible, but I don't do it.  Some people prefer to eat people, that doesn't mean you have to.  Some people feel the need to murder, so are they wrong?  Do you do everything you "feel"?

So, gay people could live a lonely, miserable life without anyone they can truly love so they can live in accordance with the archaic morals of some book, or they could be themselves.

[AnimatedDirt]

First of all, I'd like to say how I absolutely love how you ignore answering my example, because you simply have no answer for it. Why have you still neglected to do so? Nonetheless I want to address your response to whitney:

I have addressed your question/post.  If Whitney's post addressed your question/point too, then I've not ignored you.

Ok, AnimatedDirt, you're entire example is entirely irrelevant and useless until you get past what me and whitney have been asking, and I'll tell you why, again, for the third time, because you seem to be either ignoring what's being said or just don't want to address it directly. I'll yet again lay an example before you, but this time I'm going to add more detail for you:

Yet again I will say, there is nothing that does not go according to your God's plan, your God can not be wrong
** If you do not agree with the above statement, then say so, because otherwise, you're completely contradicting yourself, allow me to explain.

God's "plan" certainly didn't go according to "plan".  Proof?  Sin.  Full Stop.

If you do agree with the above statement,

Notice, I don't agree.  You seem to have "plans" and "freewill" so twisted that up is down and right is left...and choice is no choice.

then any atheist that has died as an atheist (and we can assume there have been hundreds of thousands) have died such according to your God's plan and ultimately are sent to hell by his will, Animated. Why?

Because again the "plan" is to save those who will be saved.  Otherwise, the rest have chosen to disbelieve.  Christ died for ALL so all can be, but not all will/want to be saved.  Some in fact, have no idea they need saving.  Some have the belief that they are in need of no such thing as salvation.  The PLAN is to save those that choose to be.

If your God can not be wrong, and Atheists have died as such without accepting him, then your God has already forseen this before their very birth. Your God, by definition knew they would die as an Atheist from the moment they were born considering that he know's everything that will happen. Because of this, and because your God cannot be wrong, there is absolutely nothing that the said persons could have done other than die as Atheists, it would be impossible for them to even convert to Christianity because your God's plan already dictated that they die as an Atheist, or in other words are doomed to your blood thirsty God's hell from their birth.

Not at all.  You are wrong.  The choice remains whether you see it as a choice or not.  There is a fork (as you suggest) and there is a right and left path.  You have chosen whichever you deem appropriate.

So to recap:

1.Your God has a plan (knows everything that will happen)

This is hardly a "plan".  Knowing everything that will happen is knowledge, not a plan.  This is simple elementary dictionary definitions so I'm not understanding why you would swap the definitions of words for other words.

2.Your God cannot be wrong.

Define "wrong"  It seems I would agree with "God cannot be wrong", but in light of premise #1, I must ask.

3.People have died as Atheists, which is unavoidable (see 1 and 2)

No where is there a plan for Atheists.  That it is unavoidable, is true.  The scriptures do not speak of a plan that saves all, but a plan that saves ALL that WILL be or in other words, the plan saves ALL that choose to be saved.

4. Conclusion: Your God is ultimately responsible for everyone currently in hell, and has predetermined who is and isn't going to go to such a place before they have even been born (Again, see 1 and 2)

Your conclusion is based on false premises...and so it is flawed as pointed out above.

If you would like to reconcile this, and prove that we do have a choice, then you will need to, for starters, explain how Atheists, and people of other religions have died as such, if you intend to hold premise 1 and 2 as correct.

Premise 1 (at least) is wrong...the rest fail if your conclusion is based on 1,2,3 being correct.

Until then, you're assertion that we can choose to accept him is absolutely meaningless.

Again...you fail on #1.  It is then not meaningless.

I will re-iterate to you again an earlier example. What you're now saying is equivalent to me saying "Well, Harry Potter had a choice to not be a wizard in the book, but he still became one anyway"

Again you fail.  The author of the book is directing the path of the CHARACTER.  God created a being with freewill to choose their path.  If the being chooses left or right remains the being's choice.  It matters not whether the creator of the freewill being knows the choice or not.  It bears no significance on the choice the being made for itself.

? No he didn't, JK Rowling, dictates what happens because she is the author and has already written what will happen. The character Harry Potter can do nothing to change that, and as you flip through the pages can do absolutely nothing different than what the author has written on the next page.

Correct...the author wrote the whole thing from start to finish.  God didn't write the book, He created the being and the being defines it's own path.  God simply has knowledge of that path.  It wasn't dictated/predestined as one would author a book.

:brick:

All the animations in the world will not make your point for you.

[Tokage]

Only the first paragraph was addressed to Free will.  Everything else was addressed to Stevil.  Hence the Stevil- before my text.

My appologies, I missed that.

 

But, I'm not a full supporter of complete free will, for there are things you can't choose.  Read again, So we do have free will, but it is in the confines of a sovereign Thor. Thor allows certain things and keeps certain things still. This is the difference between Total Depravity and Utter Depravity. For instance, Hitler was totally depraved, but we could make the case he could've been a whole lot worse. So we do have free will, but it isn't an all inclusive will that makes us our definer of reality. There is a uniform reality and we all exist as a part of it. Idk Thor's providential plan or how it works for I live in the confines of time. He lives on the outside, so the perspective is different. But Thor's providence extends for us to be able to choose certain paths within a moral boundary of Thor's supreme will.  There is a limit to our Free will.  

I don't believe everything I have done or will do has been chosen for me before I do it regardless of me, but the foreknowledge doesn't discredit the choice itself.  How could it?

First of all, see how I replaced every time you said "God" with "Thor" and how silly it makes it look? Does it make any sense to you when you look at that, if I were a believer in Thor and I had just written that paragraph to you?
Or does it just seem to be a blind set of assertions and white noise, back by absolutely nothing? You tell me.

Regardless though, you're still off track here. In your Hitler example for instance, how could Hitler have done anything but what he did? Was it not God's will for Hitler to do what he did during his lifetime? In other words, did God not foresee Hitler doing what he did? If so, how could Hitler have not done it? Wouldn't that make God wrong about what he foresaw? And God can't be wrong, correct?
This is what I keep trying to say to you and Animated, yet neither of you seem to want to, or be able to address it without going off on tangents that are irrelevant to the question. Entirely sidestepping whether or not people do something other than what God know's they will do?

As for your last sentence, I will re-iterate again, as I continue to have to do.
It is true, the foreknowledge of something by a human does not dictate what will actually happen for an important reason. Humans can be wrong. If I know you love chocolate cake more than strawberry, I can be pretty sure you'll choose it when given the choice. However, I can be wrong so my knowledge of what you will probably do does not confine you. There are an infinite amount of things that you could do besides choosing the chocolate cake, and even if you do choose it, it does not mean that I confined you to doing so, it only means that I had a knowledge of probability.

However, if the person who foresaw what you were going to do (Your God) can not be wrong about what he has seen, then you can not do anything but what he has seen.
This is the definition of a lack of free will.


Please reconcile the above statement if you would like to prove your God allows free will in any sense, because the connotations of not being able to do so include, as I mentioned earlier to Animated, but doubt I will get a response, God being ultimately responsible for absolutely everything, including the people in hell.

[Tokage]

Wow, incredible. You've cut my response into so many pieces Animated, that I will simply have to respond to you in a clean post.

I'll do this in small responses, so we can get somewhere, so I don't have to continue dealing with assertions and contradictions on your part.


First of all let me get a simple question answered:
Post "fall of man", can your God be wrong about anything at all? Ie: If he knows already I will have a bagel for breakfast tomorrow morning, can I have eggs instead thus making him wrong?

You see, because the point I'm trying to help you understand is that foreknowledge does matter, if the one with the foreknowledge cannot be wrong. Do you get that?

So we'll take this one step at a time, starting with very simple questions.
So concerning my bagel example, is your answer yes or no? Can he be wrong about me eating a bagel, or can he not be wrong?

This is a yes or no question, you can do it.