Ethical basis for Veganism or Vegetarianism?

[elliebean]

Sam Harris on morality:
http://www.ted.com/talks/sam_harris_science_can_show_what_s_right.html

[TheMagicSpatula]

if they dont eat meat for whatever reason, there is more for me to choose from at the meat section. maybe this way i can get some good cheap beef ribs. you know the ones that are always sold out. also (i know next to nothing about economics and im about ot prove it) if there is no demand for the supply, wouldnt the cost go down?

The change in price would depend on the price elasticity of the good.  http://www.quickmba.com/econ/micro/elas/ped.shtml  Estimates vary based on culture and location, but generally in Canada, meat is an inelastic good, varying from .59 to .76.  http://www.fao.org/docrep/005/Y4475E/y4475e09.htm  It's been a long time since Econ 101, but from what I understand, if a good is price inelastic, then the demand will not change all that much with the price.  Like gasoline a few years ago, even as price increased, the demand did not subside very much.

In my estimation, and without any backing from research or studies, if demand decreased significantly, price could increase if meat went from a commodity to a specialty good.  Right now, meat benefits from economy of scale.  Since (almost) everyone wants meat, you can sell off an entire truckload in no time at all.  If things were reversed, and a store only sold a few cows a week, the costs of maintaining facilities for producing that meat would no longer be shared across a great number of products, and would increase per-unit costs.  

Just imagine how inexpensive it is to get ethnic foods in their native region, compared to what you would pay at a specialty store in rural areas of the Midwest.  The demand is low in quantity, but the demand curve is inelastic because of the few that are willing to pay almost any price for their ethnic food.  Now imagine you were in the same situation, meat is fairly rare because only a few percent of the people in town actually eat it.  How much would you be willing to pay for a fat, juicy steak?  I would wager that for some, they would pay almost any price for a steak.

[G-Roll]

if they dont eat meat for whatever reason, there is more for me to choose from at the meat section. maybe this way i can get some good cheap beef ribs. you know the ones that are always sold out. also (i know next to nothing about economics and im about ot prove it) if there is no demand for the supply, wouldnt the cost go down?

The change in price would depend on the price elasticity of the good.  http://www.quickmba.com/econ/micro/elas/ped.shtml  Estimates vary based on culture and location, but generally in Canada, meat is an inelastic good, varying from .59 to .76.  http://www.fao.org/docrep/005/Y4475E/y4475e09.htm  It's been a long time since Econ 101, but from what I understand, if a good is price inelastic, then the demand will not change all that much with the price.  Like gasoline a few years ago, even as price increased, the demand did not subside very much.

In my estimation, and without any backing from research or studies, if demand decreased significantly, price could increase if meat went from a commodity to a specialty good.  Right now, meat benefits from economy of scale.  Since (almost) everyone wants meat, you can sell off an entire truckload in no time at all.  If things were reversed, and a store only sold a few cows a week, the costs of maintaining facilities for producing that meat would no longer be shared across a great number of products, and would increase per-unit costs.  

Just imagine how inexpensive it is to get ethnic foods in their native region, compared to what you would pay at a specialty store in rural areas of the Midwest.  The demand is low in quantity, but the demand curve is inelastic because of the few that are willing to pay almost any price for their ethnic food.  Now imagine you were in the same situation, meat is fairly rare because only a few percent of the people in town actually eat it.  How much would you be willing to pay for a fat, juicy steak?  I would wager that for some, they would pay almost any price for a steak.

you just killed the dream....  

[Fininho]

I'm told you can have vegetarian burgers! *
Is this true?  

[* I sympathise with vegetarians, but why would I have to eat such burgers?...]

[karadan]

I feel a swift 'wtf' is required here...

[wildfire_emissary]

Well, .

[The Magic Pudding]

[* I sympathise with vegetarians, but why would I have to eat such burgers?...]

The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want
He makes me down to lie
Through pastures green He leadeth me the silent waters by.
With bright knives He releaseth my soul.
He maketh me to hang on hooks in high places.
He converteth me to lamb cutlets,
For lo, He hath great power, and great hunger.
When cometh the day we lowly ones,
Through quiet reflection, and great dedication
Master the art of Judo,
Lo, we shall rise up,
And then we'll make the bugger's eyes water.

I did have an image of karadan force feeding a burger with that tongue thing of his, best not think about that though.

[Fininho]

Well, let me be frank, here:
I have never tasted a vegetarian burger!
Just the thought upsets my stomach.

[karadan]

I did have an image of karadan force feeding a burger with that tongue thing of his, best not think about that though.

Tongue thing? Uh-oh.. You been on my youtube page?  

[karadan]

Well, let me be frank, here:
I have never tasted a vegetarian burger!
Just the thought upsets my stomach.

Well you should try! As an omnivore, i like my meat but a lot of vegetarian products are actually quite tasty. Veggie burgers are simply a mash-up of various vegetables and spices coated (usually) in breadcrumbs.

What did you think they were made of?

[Fininho]

I think those burgers are more artificial than real.
Lots of colorants and preservatives...
And the smell must be another thing!
Is it not like eating dried grass?...

[karadan]

I think those burgers are more artificial than real.
Lots of colorants and preservatives...
And the smell must be another thing!
Is it not like eating dried grass?...

http://www.lindamccartneyfoods.co.uk/burger.php

Nuff said.

[Tom62]

I like vegetarian food, as long as they don't try to imitate meat dishes. Any type of soy- or tofu product makes me feel sick. I just can't eat that stuff.

[karadan]

I like vegetarian food, as long as they don't try to imitate meat dishes. Any type of soy- or tofu product makes me feel sick. I just can't eat that stuff.

Yeah, i've always wondered why they feel the need to closely imitate meat. I guess it caters for the conscientious vegeterians. I've had meat free bacon before and that tasted really odd. I actually quite like most of the Linda Mccartney food but i can't eat the mince. That stuff is gross.

[Thumpalumpacus]

I confess not understanding anyone who doesn't enjoy good barbecue.