A realistic yet perfect world to an atheist

[Whitney]

I think countries like the England, Sweden,  US operating on secular laws is proof enough that religion is not necessary to maintain a civil society....in fact it could be easily argued that the countries with religion based laws are the least civilized.  I don't remember the last time someone declared war in the name of no god; a truly secular society would have one less thing
to fight over.

[Will]

I agree that extreme greed is a degenerative force in society, however, in what manner would someone "curb" greed and when does this become social pressure to redistribute wealth and resources?  How much of a persons wealth should be shared?

I think the problem comes from considering large amounts of money "wealth". The way it was originally conceived, money is a means to an end, not an end in and of itself. It was a simple tool to aid interaction after the concept of private property spread. With the advent of private property and currency/trade, there was the first major shift from collective good to individual good that happened outside of situations where scarcity of resources necessitated competition. In other words, individuals became oriented to gain in wealth and power for themselves first and their family or community second, whereas generally it was the other way around when we were hunter gatherers. This isn't a bad thing, as we've seen some competition can bring out excellence, but it also creates inequality.

Tying that back into the money/wealth thing, the problem is that when the priority shifts too far into the individual side compounded with the fact that money is being confused for wealth, you get serious societal problems. Wealth is an abundance of something valuable, but money itself isn't value, but something which can be exchanged for value. When wealth is considered simply to be a lot of money, which is a finite resource, the resulting inequality victimizes those who haven't won in the competition, penalizing them with poverty. I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't want to play a game in which the losers live in poverty.

To answer your question as to how much money should be shared, I don't think there should ever be billionaires. Ever. There shouldn't be $100 millionaires, either. That amount of money under one person means that much money not with those unable to succeed in whatever economic system they're born into. Even in the richest countries in the world, there are millions starving.

Once again I did ask for a realistic protrayal of perfection because I wanted to know if in the absence of a social order which arises from religious ethos such as we see today would the atheist be prepared to offer an alternate system which would work as well or better for that matter.

The first thing would be campaign finance laws, making elections 100% publicly funded and restricting the income of former representatives after they've left offices to prevent favors. Money has no place in politics. Moreover, we need extreme whistle-blower laws, protecting people willing to turn in those who abuse power. This is all to pave the way for a more progressive tax system, more like that under Eisenhower. It's important to fix campaign finance and bribery in government first because the increased tax revenue from a more progressive system would mean a lot of temptation for those outside of government to try and weasel their way into no-bid contracts and revolving doors.

I know this just sounds like "more government", but some government is necessary to help a society do well. Smart government is pivotal in a world with so many people. The only other centers of power are the market, which is greed-driven, and religion, which is either dogma-driven or is wildly subjective. Neither of them are stable enough to enact that kind of change I imagine.

[KebertX]

In the words of Jimi Hendrix ~ "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace."

I don't see where Organized Religion can fall into such a world, as it is an entity that exists for the soul purpose of controlling people. I see no problem with people coming to terms with a personal view of God, but I believe that without Churches and the like, people would quickly find that they are too smart to believe in such things.

So I suppose a perfect world, for me, would probably be one without religion.

Great to be back, Forum!

[KebertX]

I think countries like the England, Sweden,  US operating on secular laws is proof enough that religion is not necessary to maintain a civil society....in fact it could be easily argued that the countries with religion based laws are the least civilized.  I don't remember the last time someone declared war in the name of no god; a truly secular society would have one less thing
to fight over.

Umm... The Soviet Union? I see your point though, Theocratic nations do lean way further to the barbaric side of things in the international playing field.

[Whitney]

Umm... The Soviet Union?

If they had declared war in the name of atheism then that would be an example but as far as I can tell their wars and the cold war were largely politically/economically motivated and the "red scare" was just propaganda taking the truth way out of proportion to make Americans support US actions against the Soviet Union.

[Asmodean]

Umm... The Soviet Union?

If they had declared war in the name of atheism then that would be an example but as far as I can tell their wars and the cold war were largely politically/economically motivated and the "red scare" was just propaganda taking the truth way out of proportion to make Americans support US actions against the Soviet Union.

Indeed. soviet Union has never declared a war with atheism as the banner cause.

Atheism was the effect of a political system, it was not the cause of it. And, as such, was a secondary ideology to them.

[KebertX]

Indeed.

[hismikeness]

Everyone's nailed most everything I can think of except one. In my perfect world, there'd also be no more hairlips.

[tymygy]

In my "perfect" world, there would be no diseases, no famines, no premature deaths, and the conscious choice to choose what you want to believe based on the evidence given.

I'd also like to state; what is perfection? How do we discern what absolute "goodness" is? Is it human nature that decides? Personally, I believe perfection is like an obstacle course that cannot be completed without failing. But, one who does complete the course, would have done it perfectly, therfore been called perfect. But how CAN it be done if it CAN NOT be done? Simple, perfection doesn't exist, not in a god, nor in a human. Anyways, I'm rambling. Each person has his/her own view of perfection, mine is what I originally stated.

 

[TheWilliam]

For me.

A world with a Lot less people, A lot more skittles.

Change the prison system so it's not just slave camps for cheap cigarettes and shit, and actually try to rehabilitate these guys so they don't just get out and fuck up again.

Oh and no guns. No gunpowder.

I hate guns. I hate that they exist.

[Asmodean]

For me.

A world with a Lot less people, A lot more skittles.

Change the prison system so it's not just slave camps for cheap cigarettes and shit, and actually try to rehabilitate these guys so they don't just get out and fuck up again.

Oh and no guns. No gunpowder.

I hate guns. I hate that they exist.

Come visit us in Scandinavia! You might like it here   And our jails are all about rehabing people back into society - with all the ups and downs it entails... And in my country, there are really not that many of us  

[NearBr0ken]

A world in which communities are homogenous and economically sound with stable values and monetary systems.  A world in which freedom of association is respected on the collective level as well as on the indivdual level.  In which the poisons of our society- alcohol, tobacco, pollution, etc.- are eliminated due to an increase in knowledge of biochemistry, ecology, and rationality.  Essentially, a world based on the lessons of history, rational scientific inquiry, the revealed laws of nature, common sense, and logic.

[DropLogic]

I can only speak for myself, as there are as many kinds of atheists as there are kinds of any other not-a-thing (atheists don't share a set of beliefs, but rather a single disbelief).
.

Point taken....

A perfect world within reason, in my opinion, would be one in which greed is collectively curbed so that it never leads to negligent suffering. Call it a shift in priorities from self to collective. Not a complete shift, mind you, but one large enough so that it would make things like war and poverty incredibly rare. We have it within ourselves to do this on an individual level, I see it every day, so I have to conclude it's possible on a community, national, and even global level.

I agree that extreme greed is a degenerative force in society, however, in what manner would someone "curb" greed and when does this become social pressure to redistribute wealth and resources?  How much of a persons wealth should be shared?  

Once again I did ask for a realistic protrayal of perfection because I wanted to know if in the absence of a social order which arises from religious ethos such as we see today would the atheist be prepared to offer an alternate system which would work as well or better for that matter.

I look at the Vatican City, I look at the mega-churches of America, and I see greed.  If your argument is that belief in god causes people to give money to the people who really need it, you are sorely mistaken.  I don't think greed has anything to do with religion at all...I think greed is simply human nature, and by your set of beliefs...we have god to thank for that.

You cannot ask someone to describe perfection, because each person has an individual idea of perfection that will never jive with any other.  A group of people can certainly come to a consensus, or compromise as to what would be ideal...perfection is as impossible as god.

[TheWilliam]

For me.

A world with a Lot less people, A lot more skittles.

Change the prison system so it's not just slave camps for cheap cigarettes and shit, and actually try to rehabilitate these guys so they don't just get out and fuck up again.

Oh and no guns. No gunpowder.

I hate guns. I hate that they exist.

Come visit us in Scandinavia! You might like it here   And our jails are all about rehabing people back into society - with all the ups and downs it entails... And in my country, there are really not that many of us  

what about natural disasters, like where i'm from in Washington State (seattle). there's earthquakes.

and where i live now in Florida (orlando), there's hurricanes and tornadoes and sinkholes......... and rednecks.

[The Magic Pudding]

And in my country, there are really not that many of us  

I'm not surprised,a bit cold for bananas.
How about the monsters that sometimes look like Angelina Jolie?