Re: Should one Christian be reponsible for Christianity?

[Voter]

You're right of course, in the fact that we don't have any inalienable rights besides from those our government gives us.

Actually rights granted by governments are not inalienable.

When I'm talking about taking away rights, I mean rights we naturally have in nature, which is basically the right to do whatever the fuck we want.

Like vote my conscience on a proposed law?

[TheJackel]

You're right of course, in the fact that we don't have any inalienable rights besides from those our government gives us.

Actually rights granted by governments are not inalienable.

When I'm talking about taking away rights, I mean rights we naturally have in nature, which is basically the right to do whatever the fuck we want.

Like vote my conscience on a proposed law?

You mean vote in religious Bigotry? You do understand the major backers to Anti-Gay movement in the political Arena are the Christian fundamentalist groups correct? It's quite irrelevant if you try to side step the issue and pose it as some blurred line of "conscience" voting. You apparently think then that bigotry is a moral quality to which you seemingly think should be enforced by law. You may as well vote in a law that GAYS have to pay a breathing tax or die because you think they are such an abomination of your ideological construct. Funny how easy it is to dictate other peoples lives when it doesn't effect your own. Take away everyone's right marriage accept your own is the key argument you are making..

So I will ask you a simple question.

Do you think marriage is owned by Christianity? Or your so called conscience?

It also might help you to understand the following:


Natural and legal rights
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Natural and legal rights are two types of rights theoretically distinct according to philosophers and political scientists. Natural rights, also called inalienable rights, are considered to be self-evident and universal. They are not contingent upon the laws, customs, or beliefs of any particular culture or government. Legal rights, also called statutory rights, are bestowed by a particular government to the governed people and are relative to specific cultures and governments. They are enumerated or codified into legal statutes by a legislative body.

Bigotry
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A bigot is a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices, especially one exhibiting intolerance, and animosity toward those of differing beliefs. The predominant usage in modern English refers to persons hostile to those of differing race, ethnicity, nationality, sexual orientation, various mental disorders, or religion.

You sir are essentially trying to legislate religious Bigotry into law.

[AnimatedDirt]

So I will ask you a simple question.

Do you think marriage is owned by Christianity? Or your so called conscience?

No, I think God created the institution of marriage and so does "own" it.  However, my religious convictions SHOULD NOT DICTATE SECULAR CIVIL LAW.  Therefore, I support the gay community in gaining the CIVIL right to marriage and all that secular society gives as civil rights through marriage.

You sir are essentially trying to legislate religious Bigotry into law.

I would tend to agree.

[Voter]

No, I think God created the institution of marriage and so does "own" it.  However, my religious convictions SHOULD NOT DICTATE SECULAR CIVIL LAW.  Therefore, I support the gay community in gaining the CIVIL right to marriage and all that secular society gives as civil rights through marriage.

There are churches, Christian and otherwise, that support gay marriage. Does that mean that their members CAN'T vote in favor of gay marriage? That's the logical conclusion of your position.

If you say that those in favor of gay marriage on religious grounds can vote for gay marriage, but those opposed to gay marriage on religious grounds can't vote against it, you're now practicing bigotry yourself.

What if I'm opposed to gay marriage on religious grounds, but was also opposed to it before I was a Christian...can I vote against it in that case?  

This argument - that one can't vote their opinion if their opinion is influenced by theior religion - is ridiculous, and is itself bigotry.

[LegendarySandwich]

What if I'm opposed to gay marriage on religious grounds, but was also opposed to it before I was a Christian...can I vote against it in that case?  

[edited to remove ad hominem]

[AnimatedDirt]

There are churches, Christian and otherwise, that support gay marriage. Does that mean that their members CAN'T vote in favor of gay marriage? That's the logical conclusion of your position.

If you say that those in favor of gay marriage on religious grounds can vote for gay marriage, but those opposed to gay marriage on religious grounds can't vote against it, you're now practicing bigotry yourself.

What if I'm opposed to gay marriage on religious grounds, but was also opposed to it before I was a Christian...can I vote against it in that case?  

This argument - that one can't vote their opinion if their opinion is influenced by theior religion - is ridiculous, and is itself bigotry.

By all means, vote your conscience.  I'm not saying you can't vote on your own conscience, what I'm saying is that the grounds on which the gay community is seeking equality is on a CIVIL matter and not on the grounds of a religious matter.  IN THAT regard, one must then separate what you think theologically and what you think as a citizen of a secular society.  Marriage and what the state affords the married couple has nothing to do whether it is theologically right or wrong.  It is void of the "God" side of the matter.  It has to do with tax credits, rights on medical matters, next of kin decisions ...(among other things) that to the gay couple is the decision for their mate to make and not a family that may or may not agree with their lifestyle or even know their wishes.

[McQ]

What if I'm opposed to gay marriage on religious grounds, but was also opposed to it before I was a Christian...can I vote against it in that case?  

In that case, I would think of you as just an all-around stupid bigot. Actually, I already think that of you, but I guess I would think it was more justified.

LS, this comment of yours is out of bounds and unwarranted. You have been here long enough to know that this would not fly.

[LegendarySandwich]

What if I'm opposed to gay marriage on religious grounds, but was also opposed to it before I was a Christian...can I vote against it in that case?  

In that case, I would think of you as just an all-around stupid bigot. Actually, I already think that of you, but I guess I would think it was more justified.

LS, this comment of yours is out of bounds and unwarranted. You have been here long enough to know that this would not fly.

Sorry. I won't do it again.

If you could actually remove the post, that'd be best.

Voter, I also apologize to you, despite our disagreement.

[Sophus]

No, I think God created the institution of marriage and so does "own" it.  However, my religious convictions SHOULD NOT DICTATE SECULAR CIVIL LAW.  Therefore, I support the gay community in gaining the CIVIL right to marriage and all that secular society gives as civil rights through marriage.

:hail:  :hail:  :hail:  :hail:  

[Stevil]

Well put AnimatedDirt

Isn't it really up to god to judge on judgement day. Until then, lets just live harmoniously and accept other people for who they are. If you believe then their actions will be judged, so its really not your problem.

[Voter]

By all means, vote your conscience.  I'm not saying you can't vote on your own conscience,

That's certainly what some of your strange bedfellows are proposing. So you're OK with me voting against a gay marriage act?

what I'm saying is that the grounds on which the gay community is seeking equality is on a CIVIL matter and not on the grounds of a religious matter.  IN THAT regard, one must then separate what you think theologically and what you think as a citizen of a secular society.

No, there is absolutely no requirement that I set my religious beliefs aside.

Marriage and what the state affords the married couple has nothing to do whether it is theologically right or wrong.  It is void of the "God" side of the matter.

I disagree. Can I vote my mind or not?

[Voter]

Well put AnimatedDirt

Isn't it really up to god to judge on judgement day. Until then, lets just live harmoniously and accept other people for who they are.

You're obviously not too keen on accepting conservative Christians for who they are. As always, tolerance really means "tolerance for those who I support."

[LegendarySandwich]

I disagree. Can I vote my mind or not?

Yes, you can. If you want to be part of the problem, not the solution, you have a right to. We can't stop you.

How does that old saying go? "You can bring a horse to water, but you can't make it drink."

[AnimatedDirt]

By all means, vote your conscience.  I'm not saying you can't vote on your own conscience,

That's certainly what some of your strange bedfellows are proposing. So you're OK with me voting against a gay marriage act?

what I'm saying is that the grounds on which the gay community is seeking equality is on a CIVIL matter and not on the grounds of a religious matter.  IN THAT regard, one must then separate what you think theologically and what you think as a citizen of a secular society.

No, there is absolutely no requirement that I set my religious beliefs aside.

Marriage and what the state affords the married couple has nothing to do whether it is theologically right or wrong.  It is void of the "God" side of the matter.

I disagree. Can I vote my mind or not?

I don't think anyone is saying that anyone should vote against their conscience.  The point is, rather, that the gay community is not seeking ANY religious "ok", but are seeking equality on secular matters.  I think, also, that it is rather ignorant of Christians to think that by stopping gay marriage, they somehow will stop the gay "problem".  All sin will continue and only get worse.  We Christians should understand this.  Saying 'yes' to gay marriage (in a CIVIL context) will not cause the floodgates of hell to open spewing out homosexuals in biblical proportions on society.  The gay community will not grow as a result of equality in marriage, it will simply gain a piece of paper and rights afforded by STATE marriage.  I gather no religious organization will condone gay marriage as a result of secular law.  As many people argue, and I agree with, allowing gay marriage will do no more harm to the sacred "institute of marriage" than the heterosexuals (including Christians! *gasp*) haven't done already in massive numbers and to mindblowing degree.

No, there's no requirement to set aside your religious beliefs/convictions.  Just don't dictate them on SECULAR society when they don't want it.  So far, the numbers rest seemingly comfortable on the side of no gay marriage.  While my religious ideal is against gay marriage, my secular ideal is in support of it.  Protesting, flag waving, I think gives it "The Streisand Effect" and thus makes a mountain out of a mole hill.

Whose to say I'm right on the matter.  The bible only speaks against homoSEXual acts...not specifically marriage or relationships.

[Voter]

No, there's no requirement to set aside your religious beliefs/convictions.  Just don't dictate them on SECULAR society when they don't want it.

These two sentences seem contradictory.