Why not make everything perfect from the beginning?

[EaglesFanPhila]

If there truly is a God, why wasn't the world designed as a utopia from the beginning? Why let humans suffer hundreds, even thousands of years of sickness, famine, war, rape, taxes, child molestation, kidnapping, murder, torture, thievery, adultery, politicians, welfare, loneliness, Britney Spears, Dick Cheyney, George Bush, Rush Limbaugh, Bill O'Reilly, The Dallas Cowboys, Chad Johnson, John McEnroe, Osama Bin Laden, The Unibomber, skateboarders, and last but not least - Polka.

If I were an all powerful being, I surely would have made everything perfect from day one. I'm still baffled by the biblical story that the biting of an apple is what has lead to so much scum and villainy.

I would like to hear a Christian's answer on this as well.

[Tank]

If there truly is a God, why wasn't the world designed as a utopia from the beginning?

How do you know this isn't God's idea of utopia?

Just kidding

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[Thumpalumpacus]

Because he loves us.

[EaglesFanPhila]

Because he loves us.

I've heard this before. But if you don't believe in him, you may be subject to a steaming hot resort where snakes and insects ooze through your eyeballs, and dance on your kidneys?  I don't get it.  

[karadan]

Well, according to the Matrix, entire batches of people were lost because they rejected the utopian society created for them by the machines. Maybe god thought the same thing. Either that or he's a barbaric lunatic with a personality disorder.  

[EaglesFanPhila]

Well, according to the Matrix, entire batches of people were lost because they rejected the utopian society created for them by the machines. Maybe god thought the same thing. Either that or he's a barbaric lunatic with a personality disorder.  

Well, according to Bill Maher - "God, in the Old Testemant, was a psychopath. He just wants to kill, kill, kill!"

[Asmodean]

"A" personality disorder..? My guess is he has at least five...

[Thumpalumpacus]

Because he loves us.

I've heard this before. But if you don't believe in him, you may be subject to a steaming hot resort where snakes and insects ooze through your eyeballs, and dance on your kidneys?  I don't get it.  

Sorry, I was just echoing Carlin's classic routine (warning: foul language in this clip):

[youtube:1zcs0em8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPOfurmrjxo[/youtube:1zcs0em8]

[KDbeads]

Carlin was awesome, love that clip

[EaglesFanPhila]

Because he loves us.

I've heard this before. But if you don't believe in him, you may be subject to a steaming hot resort where snakes and insects ooze through your eyeballs, and dance on your kidneys?  I don't get it.  

Sorry, I was just echoing Carlin's classic routine (warning: foul language in this clip):

[youtube:2380vo5i]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPOfurmrjxo[/youtube:2380vo5i]

I saw that Carlin stand up.  Good stuff.

[LoneMateria]

If you buy into the whole god concept you have to believe he did this for a reason.  However if you think about it the all knowing god knew this would happen and if you are a Christian you must think that this is a good thing because the Christian god is good.  So as a Christian you have to believe that your god wanted to do all of this for a reason because he knew about it from the start and it is going on now.  Meaning that all the suffering in the world, all the "false religions", all of the people being tortured in hell is 1: planned it that way and 2: since he planned it this way it must be a good thing.  Since he planned it that way he obviously wanted it that way because if he didn't he could change it after all the god is all powerful.  So not only did the god of the bible not want a perfect utopia but he enjoys the suffering of the world because that is the way he wanted to create it from the get go otherwise he would have devised a plan that did not include suffering ... obviously he wanted it.



Or we can take Occam's Razor to this mess and say there is no god and the universe doesn't give a shit about humans.

[EaglesFanPhila]

If you buy into the whole god concept you have to believe he did this for a reason.  However if you think about it the all knowing god knew this would happen and if you are a Christian you must think that this is a good thing because the Christian god is good.  So as a Christian you have to believe that your god wanted to do all of this for a reason because he knew about it from the start and it is going on now.  Meaning that all the suffering in the world, all the "false religions", all of the people being tortured in hell is 1: planned it that way and 2: since he planned it this way it must be a good thing.  Since he planned it that way he obviously wanted it that way because if he didn't he could change it after all the god is all powerful.  So not only did the god of the bible not want a perfect utopia but he enjoys the suffering of the world because that is the way he wanted to create it from the get go otherwise he would have devised a plan that did not include suffering ... obviously he wanted it.



Or we can take Occam's Razor to this mess and say there is no god and the universe doesn't give a shit about humans.

You've pretty much summed up the discussion here. Good post!

[pinkocommie]

If there truly is a God, why wasn't the world designed as a utopia from the beginning? Why let humans suffer hundreds, even thousands of years of sickness, famine, war, rape, taxes, child molestation, kidnapping, murder, torture, thievery, adultery, politicians, welfare, loneliness, Britney Spears, Dick Cheyney, George Bush, Rush Limbaugh, Bill O'Reilly, The Dallas Cowboys, Chad Johnson, John McEnroe, Osama Bin Laden, The Unibomber, skateboarders, and last but not least - Polka.

If I were an all powerful being, I surely would have made everything perfect from day one. I'm still baffled by the biblical story that the biting of an apple is what has lead to so much scum and villainy.

I would like to hear a Christian's answer on this as well.

I think it would make more sense to ask this on a religious forum if you're honestly interested in the theist perspective on this.  As an atheist raised in a non religious home, my guess would be some trite bs about it being part of an unknowable plan or something.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Put shortly, Omniscience and Omnibenevolence are contradictory claims.  They cannot logically coexist in the same being, given the state of the world.

[freeservant]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvin_Plan ... ll_defense

A world containing creatures who are significantly free (and freely perform more good than evil actions) is more valuable, all else being equal, than a world containing no free creatures at all. Now God can create free creatures, but He can't cause or determine them to do only what is right. For if He does so, then they aren't significantly free after all; they do not do what is right freely. To create creatures capable of moral good, therefore, He must create creatures capable of moral evil; and He can't give these creatures the freedom to perform evil and at the same time prevent them from doing so. As it turned out, sadly enough, some of the free creatures God created went wrong in the exercise of their freedom; this is the source of moral evil. The fact that free creatures sometimes go wrong, however, counts neither against God's omnipotence nor against His goodness; for He could have forestalled the occurrence of moral evil only by removing the possibility of moral good.