Question about American gun laws.

[Big Mac]

That's actually a misunderstanding. They don't tumble like people claim. They will, under certain conditions, yaw and fragment in the body. Depends on the rate of twist in the barrel (1:9 and 1:7 have different affects) as well as length of barrel, bullet weight (62 grain vs 55 grain in the case of 5.56mm) and distance the target is engaged.

Understood, it is the jacketing that helps keep the bullet together in the body, and helps in the conservation of energy, too.  I use the colloquial "tumble" for ease of communication.

Muzzle Velocity isn't the same as the actual velocity of the bullet once it has left the barrel. Given that down range it will lose its energy (some rounds doing so very rapidly depending on the weapon and type of ammo used) and make the muzzle velocity a moot consideration.

Other considerations being equal, muzzle velocity has a direct effect on impact velocity.

My apologies, you're actually right on the muzzle velocity. Silly me. Bit of old info that I need to stop passing on. I see what you mean by tumble now. Sort of a lay man thing. Gotcha.

[Big Mac]

Sorry the question was sort of hypothetical in the 'would you like to live' in such a place. Beg pardon if we have ended up discussing across each other and you were referring to the situation in the USA. I would contend that 99.9% of the UK population never even consider the the need to carry a gun in self defence. It's simply not necessary. I would say that would also be the case in most of Europe. And I don't think I'm deluding myself either as I've lived here for 50 years and never even heard a gunshot outside of a range.

Well obviously yes. I would love to live in a place where I would not need a weapon. But to me there is no place in the world where that exists. You may think you're safe but really you have yet to run into a reason why you need a gun. There are plenty of them walking on two legs (and if you're out in the country, 4 legs) that are likely to just about to bump into you on day.

Do you study martial arts at all?

No. I have never studied martial arts other than watching 'Enter the Dragon' when I was a kid.  

Have you ever been to the UK?

Just curious if you took any precautions on self-defense at all. I'd love to visit the UK but it will most likely not dispel my view on safety. One thing I learned in life is there are two ways to face danger: scared or prepared. Scared is learned helplessness in my opinion. Diving your head in the sand and hoping danger goes away.

I like to think of myself as prepared for situations such as that. I still enjoy life and go out and stuff. But I don't let my guard completely down. That's just me, I guess.

[Gawen]

"An armed society is a scared society." Yes, and jesus is your saviour...*winkin*
An armed society is a prepared society. I'm armed and I'm not scared. An armed populace has the means to back itself up when it comes time to do the dirty back to a dirty government. Think of what may have happened had the Germans or Soviet peasants had the means to protect themselves from their own governments. It seems to work well in Switzerland.

Would be more appropriate. One doesn't need the immediate threat of death to act in a polite manner (except in the case of the 14 to 16 year old adolescent male). Seriously though I can't think of an unarmed society that isn't peaceful and polite. Consider all the democracies around the world. They tend to be basically peaceful, I can't think of one off the top of my head that isn't . The effective rule of law, a considerate upbringing and an equitable division of wealth is what keeps a society polite, if guns are needed there is something seriously wrong with that society IMO.

And now you deal with a free...well...so-called free....American society that has provisions in it's constitution to allow firearms to its people. Some of the toughest gun control laws in the world and it still doesn't stop the idiot that that whacked 12 people in Cumbria a week or so ago.
The thing about most of us Yanks is that were free to have guns and were free to deal with the asshats that use them wrongly...whether it's on our own or after the fact.

[Gawen]

Fair enough. I think we hold very disparate views of the world in general and we do live in very different parts of it.

Of course we do. Europeans have a difficult time understanding private ownership of firearms.

I don't think your world view is needed in the UK, it's a very different place.

That's neither hear not there for me to say. All I'll say is that we have it here and I wish it to stay.

And my world view may be equally invalid where you are.

Not at all.

Would you like to live in a place where you didn't have to worry about having to carry a gun for self defence?

Sure, but only if I can carry my own police officer...*chucklin*

[Thumpalumpacus]

My apologies, you're actually right on the muzzle velocity. Silly me. Bit of old info that I need to stop passing on. I see what you mean by tumble now. Sort of a lay man thing. Gotcha.

NP, my apologies for my own lack of clarity.

[Gawen]

I had a German friend come over here about two years ago. He spent 3 years in the BundesWehr. But he never shot a gun outside the military. When he came here, we were at the range 3 times. He couldn't get enough of it. I actually ran out of ammo...and that's unheard of. He couldn't get over the fact that he could legally shoot a firearm that his grandfather may have used 70 years ago (I have 2 Mausers). I have 4 handguns and I swear, after he got done with them they needn't a break-in period (one of them was brand new). We was very excited when I asked him if he wanted to go shooting. At the same time, he was saddened that he couldn't do this in Germany. Apparently the permits are so time consuming that no one wants to go through the process. Not to mention that private firearms are not to be kept at your home but at the range.

[Big Mac]

I had a German friend come over here about two years ago. He spent 3 years in the BundesWehr. But he never shot a gun outside the military. When he came here, we were at the range 3 times. He couldn't get enough of it. I actually ran out of ammo...and that's unheard of. He couldn't get over the fact that he could legally shoot a firearm that his grandfather may have used 70 years ago (I have 2 Mausers). I have 4 handguns and I swear, after he got done with them they needn't a break-in period (one of them was brand new). We was very excited when I asked him if he wanted to go shooting. At the same time, he was saddened that he couldn't do this in Germany. Apparently the permits are so time consuming that no one wants to go through the process. Not to mention that private firearms are not to be kept at your home but at the range.

Hahaha, we took this German exchange student out shooting when I was in high school. Man she had the most amazing blue eyes.

I remember she wanted to fire off an SKS so we gave her one and showed her what to do. Damn girl nearly burned herself on the barrel when we were packing up. Had to explain that it was very hot. But yeah, she loved it and she said that no one really owns guns besides police.

[Tank]

Just curious if you took any precautions on self-defense at all.

Apart from not to going to known places of danger, I've never taken any precautions on self defence ever. There really is no need in the UK, it's a basically safe place to live.

I'd love to visit the UK but it will most likely not dispel my view on safety.

Well it might change your view of safety in the UK if not in the USA. It might be the 'safety of the naive' but I never felt really threatened anywhere in the US either, except when my own prejudice got the better of me. I got lost driving in Chicago and ended up in a not very nice area. My car was getting low on gas and I had not had to fill it up yet. I looked for a big station with lots of lights and pulled in. At the time there were no pumps in the UK that took a credit card. You fill up and then pay in the shop. So I tried to do this only for the assistant to call over the PA for me to come to the shop. It was like a small fortress! She asked for my card, so I left it and went to fill up. When I went into the shop there were two huge MrT look alikes!! I thought my number was up!!! While paying one of these guys clocked my accent. He asked where I was from we got chatting and I told him I was lost and he drew me a map and gave me perfect directions back to the freeway, nice chap.

One thing I learned in life is there are two ways to face danger: scared or prepared. Scared is learned helplessness in my opinion. Diving your head in the sand and hoping danger goes away.

That's fine. But there isn't much danger where I live.

I like to think of myself as prepared for situations such as that. I still enjoy life and go out and stuff. But I don't let my guard completely down. That's just me, I guess.

There is nothing wrong with being prepared. It's just not needed in the UK.

[Tank]

And now you deal with a free...well...so-called free....American society that has provisions in it's constitution to allow firearms to its people. Some of the toughest gun control laws in the world and it still doesn't stop the idiot that that whacked 12 people in Cumbria a week or so ago.

Yes. But this happens about once a decade so it really isn't indicative of the normal state of affairs.

[Tank]

Actually if any of you ever get to this side of the pond I live 2 miles from here http://www.royalarmouries.org/home I'm sure Big Mac and Gerwan would love to see this.

[Big Mac]

Apart from not to going to known places of danger, I've never taken any precautions on self defence ever. There really is no need in the UK, it's a basically safe place to live.

Everywhere is a potential danger zone. If you let yourself get too lax on that fact, you might regret it if you live long enough to do that.

Well it might change your view of safety in the UK if not in the USA. It might be the 'safety of the naive' but I never felt really threatened anywhere in the US either, except when my own prejudice got the better of me. I got lost driving in Chicago and ended up in a not very nice area. My car was getting low on gas and I had not had to fill it up yet. I looked for a big station with lots of lights and pulled in. At the time there were no pumps in the UK that took a credit card. You fill up and then pay in the shop. So I tried to do this only for the assistant to call over the PA for me to come to the shop. It was like a small fortress! She asked for my card, so I left it and went to fill up. When I went into the shop there were two huge MrT look alikes!! I thought my number was up!!! While paying one of these guys clocked my accent. He asked where I was from we got chatting and I told him I was lost and he drew me a map and gave me perfect directions back to the freeway, nice chap.

Perhaps he was a nice fellow but there's a reason that shop was like a fortress. Convenience store clerk is one of the most dangerous occupations to have (at least in the US). People have been kidnapped, murdered, raped, robbed, etc. because they are open late and they often deal with cash (though that's changing nowadays).

That's fine. But there isn't much danger where I live.

Or perhaps you haven't seen it yet.

There is nothing wrong with being prepared. It's just not needed in the UK.

See this just perplexes me how one can state that. I guess considering military training and just what life has taught me makes me really view this kind of thinking as foreign. Not knocking your views, I just am amazed that's how you guys think.

[Tank]

There is nothing wrong with being prepared. It's just not needed in the UK.

See this just perplexes me how one can state that. I guess considering military training and just what life has taught me makes me really view this kind of thinking as foreign. Not knocking your views, I just am amazed that's how you guys think.

I know! I find your attitude equally jaw dropping and I'm not knocking your view either, it is almost literally alien to me. It just goes to show how different people and places are!

[pinkocommie]

I think maybe I belong in England.  

[Tank]

I think maybe I belong in England.  

[Gawen]

And now you deal with a free...well...so-called free....American society that has provisions in it's constitution to allow firearms to its people. Some of the toughest gun control laws in the world and it still doesn't stop the idiot that that whacked 12 people in Cumbria a week or so ago.

Yes. But this happens about once a decade so it really isn't indicative of the normal state of affairs.

But it happens. And yes, massacring a bunch of people isn't normal at all...not even here  *grinnin*. But if just one person where this guy was had a legal pistol and could carry it legally, I reckon there wouldn't be much of a massacre.

There's two problems here as I see it. There's us with legal gun ownership and there the rest of the world where guns are outlawed. We deal with it in a particular way and the rest of the world pretends that if guns are outlawed there won't be any crime whatsoever...because that's the civilised way to do things. Pretty much like New York and Chicago feel. "Nope, we've outlawed guns here and there's no crime now until the outlaws decide they want to rape or rob someone at gunpoint." The argument is just plain 'ol stupid.

If you're gonna have a society that allows swords, then everyone has that right to have a sword. Remember, this is an American 'right'. Not a privilege. So when that drunk hooligan decides they want to ravish your wife in the middle of the night, you better hope you're there with a sword or she can handle one as well.

If you're gonna outlaw swords, when the same situation comes along, you better hope that you can swing that bat faster and more accurate than that drunk hooligan with a sword can. And if you don't have a bat, maybe a golf club....maybe have a bucket of rocks sitting next to your bed...
Or you can run and yell for the police.

To me, gun control is being able to hit your target. I'm for making every person that buys a gun to have instructional courses in using and maintaining it, even if they have to pay for the course themselves. I'm for the most strictest punishment for crimes involving firearms.

And...one last thing...if the state is only allowed to have firearms, you have a police state...regardless how fraking polite everyone is.