Question about American gun laws.

[pinkocommie]

Soldiers don't carry guns on them all the time when they are on base, you know. Also, he had the element of surprise. Not to mention that this was a very rare and isolated case. Most deaths by guns on base are often suicides. That's more of a mental health issue with PTSD and such.

I'm aware.  Like I said, this was what popped to mind when you said you bet no one could list a shooting at a place where people were known to be armed.

[Big Mac]

Soldiers don't carry guns on them all the time when they are on base, you know. Also, he had the element of surprise. Not to mention that this was a very rare and isolated case. Most deaths by guns on base are often suicides. That's more of a mental health issue with PTSD and such.

I'm aware.  Like I said, this was what popped to mind when you said you bet no one could list a shooting at a place where people were known to be armed.

It does happen but the frequency of it happening is NOWHERE near what it is like when the place makes it clear that you can't have a gun on you.

[karadan]

In my opinion the damage was done a long time ago when it was considered necessary to carry a gun to stay safe. There's no way you can de-weaponize the US now. It would cause more harm than good to try to do this. It only works in European countries because we've had a long history of gun control, so, everyone is already used to a gunless society.

The day the problem is solved is the day they are able to stop people dying from gunshot wounds with 100% efficiency.

I think the damage was done when gun control was entered into the equation. The most violent places in the US have STRICT gun control laws yet that doesn't stop criminals from getting their guns.

The problem can be solved by letting law-abiding folks carry the tools that can and will deter criminals.

But the UK doesn't have a gun problem because there aren't any guns. There was never a shit load of guns that they'd have to take off everyone in the first place. If you've never had it, you will not miss it. That's my point. It wouldn't work in the US because they're already tooled up to the max. Controlling guns in a society where everyone already has them will be counter productive. Because of this, i feel you guys should carry on carrying guns

[Tank]

In my opinion the damage was done a long time ago when it was considered necessary to carry a gun to stay safe. There's no way you can de-weaponize the US now. It would cause more harm than good to try to do this. It only works in European countries because we've had a long history of gun control, so, everyone is already used to a gunless society.

The day the problem is solved is the day they are able to stop people dying from gunshot wounds with 100% efficiency.

I think the damage was done when gun control was entered into the equation. The most violent places in the US have STRICT gun control laws yet that doesn't stop criminals from getting their guns.

The problem can be solved by letting law-abiding folks carry the tools that can and will deter criminals.

But the UK doesn't have a gun problem because there aren't any guns. There was never a shit load of guns that they'd have to take off everyone in the first place. If you've never had it, you will not miss it. That's my point. It wouldn't work in the US because they're already tooled up to the max. Controlling guns in a society where everyone already has them will be counter productive. Because of this, i feel you guys should carry on carrying guns

+1
If one added more guns back into the UK system there would be more deaths caused by firearms, end of story.

[Big Mac]

But the UK doesn't have a gun problem because there aren't any guns. There was never a shit load of guns that they'd have to take off everyone in the first place. If you've never had it, you will not miss it. That's my point. It wouldn't work in the US because they're already tooled up to the max. Controlling guns in a society where everyone already has them will be counter productive. Because of this, i feel you guys should carry on carrying guns

Are you serious? Prison doesn't deter criminals. They live off my dime while they're there. Frankly I think we should do what the Soviets did and have gulags. Prisons in the US are so babying to prisoners. The bastards get TV and exercise equipment. So when they get out they are stronger and even more violent. Up to me I'd make them live in utter darkness and break them down mentally to the point I reshape them into productive members of society. Harsh but they are in need of mental adjustment to live in society. Those who fail should be executed in my opinion. Sorry if I sound extreme but I have nothing but contempt and hatred for criminals. They solicit not a bit of sympathy from me.

That's why if I ever get confronted in my home by an intruder, I'm going to shoot to kill. No point wasting tax payers money and letting someone get better at committing crime. And dead men can't sue. In Texas the Castle Doctrine prohibits the surviving family members of the dead man to sue the home owner.

England used to have guns as well. I know for a fact there is a sizable group of folks who aren't too happy with the handgun ban and such. Not to mention the gun laws didn't really kick off like they did until the 20th century.

Perhaps not to the extent the US has (I own about 15 myself and I know people who dwarf that number) but I'm sure there were a good number of guns.

[karadan]

But the UK doesn't have a gun problem because there aren't any guns. There was never a shit load of guns that they'd have to take off everyone in the first place. If you've never had it, you will not miss it. That's my point. It wouldn't work in the US because they're already tooled up to the max. Controlling guns in a society where everyone already has them will be counter productive. Because of this, I feel you guys should carry on carrying guns

Are you serious? Prison doesn't deter criminals. They live off my dime while they're there. Frankly I think we should do what the Soviets did and have gulags. Prisons in the US are so babying to prisoners. The bastards get TV and exercise equipment. So when they get out they are stronger and even more violent. Up to me I'd make them live in utter darkness and break them down mentally to the point I reshape them into productive members of society. Harsh but they are in need of mental adjustment to live in society. Those who fail should be executed in my opinion. Sorry if I sound extreme but I have nothing but contempt and hatred for criminals. They solicit not a bit of sympathy from me.

That's why if I ever get confronted in my home by an intruder, I'm going to shoot to kill. No point wasting tax payers money and letting someone get better at committing crime. And dead men can't sue. In Texas the Castle Doctrine prohibits the surviving family members of the dead man to sue the home owner.

England used to have guns as well. I know for a fact there is a sizable group of folks who aren't too happy with the handgun ban and such. Not to mention the gun laws didn't really kick off like they did until the 20th century.

Perhaps not to the extent the US has (I own about 15 myself and I know people who dwarf that number) but I'm sure there were a good number of guns.

No I wasn't being serious. Hence the smiley and the word 'supposed'

That's some pretty radical thinking you have there Big Mac. The problem is, your methods would not deter criminals and it wouldn't cure the root cause of why they become criminals in the first place. Instead of throwing hundreds of thousands of people into an inhumane environment, maybe the resources should be spent on investigating why people become like this in the first place. I'm pretty sure I already know the reasons, though.

Class division, poverty and overpopulation (there are others, of course, but these are the main factors). It is documented that when people's lives slip away from them, they turn to the only thing which gives them solace and happiness… Drugs. This leads to a slippery slope of addiction which will lead to crime in order to fund the habit. In the short term, drugs and alcohol relieve the user by stopping them dwelling on how shit their lives are. There are so many tragic stories all over the world of people who never stood a chance at life. People being born into broken homes and unloving environments. There's a reason that kids born into environments such as this eventually (usually) grow into criminals with no moral compass. It was never nurtured and instilled within them by a stable and loving background. Put someone in a hopeless situation and their actions will become increasingly desparate and inconsiderate.

There's a reason there's a correlation between the instance of poverty in a given area and the higher levels of crime. The foundations of modern society will inherently give more opportunity to people born into wealthier environments. That is what has to be fixed. Just killing off all the criminals is akin to burying your head in the sand. It will not solve the issue. It will also breed further hatred for the system because 'moderate criminals' (tax evaders, petty thieves, etc) will fall under your category of criminal. Should someone who stole a pair of shoes because they didn't have any in mid winter deserve to go to a gulag? If your answer is yes then you lack a certain type of empathy which I'd normally reserve for a sociopath. The absence of a smiley there means I'm being rather serious too.

People in Russia are hardy folk. They can seemigly take a hell of a lot due to the oppressive nature of their society. They also have a dire human rights record. Seemingly, life isn't as important there as it is in other countries. That's not the best cycle to get into, especially if a country wants to advance itself morally for future generations. If you show empathy to someone, they will respond positively. It is a very simple concept not enough people understand.

The main gun laws in the UK were imposed in the 30's. Hand guns were banned in the 90's. The main differences between the two countries' laws is geography (the UK is easier to police seeing as it is smaller than most US states) and we don’t have a constitution which tells people it is their right to have firearms. There may be a group of people who do not like the laws as they are, but the amount of people who prefer the UK as a gunless nation dwarfs that figure.

[Big Mac]

No I wasn't being serious. Hence the smiley and the word 'supposed'

That's some pretty radical thinking you have there Big Mac. The problem is, your methods would not deter criminals and it wouldn't cure the root cause of why they become criminals in the first place. Instead of throwing hundreds of thousands of people into an inhumane environment, maybe the resources should be spent on investigating why people become like this in the first place. I'm pretty sure I already know the reasons, though.

Class division, poverty and overpopulation (there are others, of course, but these are the main factors). It is documented that when people's lives slip away from them, they turn to the only thing which gives them solace and happiness… Drugs. This leads to a slippery slope of addiction which will lead to crime in order to fund the habit. In the short term, drugs and alcohol relieve the user by stopping them dwelling on how shit their lives are. There are so many tragic stories all over the world of people who never stood a chance at life. People being born into broken homes and unloving environments. There's a reason that kids born into environments such as this eventually (usually) grow into criminals with no moral compass. It was never nurtured and instilled within them by a stable and loving background. Put someone in a hopeless situation and their actions will become increasingly desparate and inconsiderate.

There's a reason there's a correlation between the instance of poverty in a given area and the higher levels of crime. The foundations of modern society will inherently give more opportunity to people born into wealthier environments. That is what has to be fixed. Just killing off all the criminals is akin to burying your head in the sand. It will not solve the issue. It will also breed further hatred for the system because 'moderate criminals' (tax evaders, petty thieves, etc) will fall under your category of criminal. Should someone who stole a pair of shoes because they didn't have any in mid winter deserve to go to a gulag? If your answer is yes then you lack a certain type of empathy which I'd normally reserve for a sociopath. The absence of a smiley there means I'm being rather serious too.

People in Russia are hardy folk. They can seemigly take a hell of a lot due to the oppressive nature of their society. They also have a dire human rights record. Seemingly, life isn't as important there as it is in other countries. That's not the best cycle to get into, especially if a country wants to advance itself morally for future generations. If you show empathy to someone, they will respond positively. It is a very simple concept not enough people understand.

The main gun laws in the UK were imposed in the 30's. Hand guns were banned in the 90's. The main differences between the two countries' laws is geography (the UK is easier to police seeing as it is smaller than most US states) and we don’t have a constitution which tells people it is their right to have firearms. There may be a group of people who do not like the laws as they are, but the amount of people who prefer the UK as a gunless nation dwarfs that figure.

They can save their little sob stories for someone else. I don't give two shits about someone not having enough money for shoes. There are tons of organizations that help out the poor. Poverty is not a valid reason. It's just a manipulative ploy they use on people like you who have too much empathy. I say dry your tears and harden your heart. Everyone's got a sad story to tell. I have to work to pay for rent, tuition, food, etc. I work at a job I hate but guess what, that's life. It's rough and you gotta toughen up or else die. Nature has it set that way. I feel no pity for a thief. A thief is a thief. They can cry all they want about how they only stole to feed themselves. I don't buy it. There are food banks and charity organizations to go to. Not to mention government assistance. I'd like to see some government cheese myself. Won't happen though because I don't fail at life like those sad Darwin cases.

And if you go to drugs/alcohol when times get hard, then you are probably unfit to use up resources that could go to someone who isn't a weak-willed sissy. I'm not radical, my friend, I just don't let someone's sob story get to me. And nature and me are in tune. The stronger, more determined inherit the earth, the meek and weak die off. Like I said, dry your tears, they won't get an ounce of pity out of me. I guess growing up with parents who reinforced the idea of self-reliance I don't pity those who can't survive on their own. And frankly I kind of welcome the end of the world. Be nice to watch the dead weight fall off the planet.

I merely advocate that when criminals don't have the protection of draconian gun laws, they tend to be wary of robbing someone. Kick down someone's door in Texas, they'll be within their rights to blow your head off. I can't imagine having it any other way. Nor do I want to.

One caveat to that. I do believe in helping people who are willing to help themselves. I've volunteered at the literacy coalition and helped tutor people working on their GED. I do believe in charitable work that isn't just giving stuff, but teaching people the skills they need to be productive. I'm not completely heartless. I just don't buy the "I'm desperate so it's okay I break the law" bit.

[pinkocommie]

They can save their little sob stories for someone else. I don't give two shits about someone not having enough money for shoes. There are tons of organizations that help out the poor. Poverty is not a valid reason. It's just a manipulative ploy they use on people like you who have too much empathy. I say dry your tears and harden your heart. Everyone's got a sad story to tell. I have to work to pay for rent, tuition, food, etc. I work at a job I hate but guess what, that's life. It's rough and you gotta toughen up or else die. Nature has it set that way. I feel no pity for a thief. A thief is a thief. They can cry all they want about how they only stole to feed themselves. I don't buy it. There are food banks and charity organizations to go to. Not to mention government assistance. I'd like to see some government cheese myself. Won't happen though because I don't fail at life like those sad Darwin cases.

And if you go to drugs/alcohol when times get hard, then you are probably unfit to use up resources that could go to someone who isn't a weak-willed sissy. I'm not radical, my friend, I just don't let someone's sob story get to me. And nature and me are in tune. The stronger, more determined inherit the earth, the meek and weak die off. Like I said, dry your tears, they won't get an ounce of pity out of me. I guess growing up with parents who reinforced the idea of self-reliance I don't pity those who can't survive on their own. And frankly I kind of welcome the end of the world. Be nice to watch the dead weight fall off the planet.

I merely advocate that when criminals don't have the protection of draconian gun laws, they tend to be wary of robbing someone. Kick down someone's door in Texas, they'll be within their rights to blow your head off. I can't imagine having it any other way. Nor do I want to.

One caveat to that. I do believe in helping people who are willing to help themselves. I've volunteered at the literacy coalition and helped tutor people working on their GED. I do believe in charitable work that isn't just giving stuff, but teaching people the skills they need to be productive. I'm not completely heartless. I just don't buy the "I'm desperate so it's okay I break the law" bit.

My dad stole to feed us (my sister and I) when we were young a few times.  He was a drug addict and a Vietnam vet with PTSD.  I think it's pretty offensive to paint someone who was fucked up because he fought for this country and used drugs to help deal with his experiences as a 'weak willed sissy'.  I find this post to be disheartening and indicative of an aspect of America I greatly dislike.

[karadan]

You sure are ignorant of reality.

I wonder Big Mac, did your father rape you from the age of six? Did he force you to watch whilst he raped your mum? Did he drug you and violate you for a camera? Did he hold you down and put pins under your scalp telling you that if you screamed, he'd cut your mums tits off? If that did happen to you from the age of six, i wonder how well adjusted you'd be in later life. I wonder how it would make you feel walking past a macdonalds as a homeless teenager, seeing all the happy families in there. I wonder how much rage that would make you feel, knowing your life had been robbed from you by a tyrant for a father, now dead by suicide. You think you'd just keep your chin up and get on with life without having learnt any of the social and intellectual skills necessary to function properly in this society, regardless of all the horrendous psychological baggage such an upbringing would entail? I really doubt it, but, it must be easy not having to give a shit about those less fortunate than yourself. Ignorance is bliss, as they say. The untold cycle of perpetual suffering happens across the planet on a daily basis, just like the true story above, and that doesn't give you pause to wonder why this happens?

You seem able to implant your own cozy existence upon the lives of the far, far less fortunate than yourself and expect them to abide by the same rules. It is a puzzling frame of mind to be bereft of all and any empathy for any fellow human and to be completely indifferent as to what makes other people tick. I'm simply interested in cause and prevention and the long term generational study into why this happens. You only seem interested in yourself and the harsh and gleeful retribution for anyone who interferes with your ego-imposed sadistic status quo.

What you seemed to glean from my earlier post was that i'm excusing the crimes people make because they've had a bad life. Not at all. If someone commits a crime, they deserve to be punished but i was more concerned with why people become criminals in the first place. You are lucky enough to be educated which means you are able to get a job and earn a living. What astounds me is that you seem to think anyone else should be able to do the same even though their background might be polar opposite to yours, having had all the tools for a normal life taken away from them before they had a chance. Put it this way, how many doctors, psychologists, bankers, teachers, and anyone else with a well paid profession are on death row? If there are any, i'm sure the proportion is incredibly low. The same probably goes for normal inmate rates. See the corellation there?

Yes, there are agencies and government run programmes who are there to help the needy but you cannot say with a straight face that there aren't enormous holes in those systems.

At least you're honest, i guess.

[Tank]

Gentlemen, please.  

[McQ]

I'll echo Tank's last post and add to it: "Gentlemen please! You can't fight in here, this is the war room!"
 

Seriously, I just read the entire thread for the first time, and it's been going well until this page. Please just keep it real and civil, everyone. This is yet another difficult issue for people from different cultures to agree on or even understand one another on. No one person has been truly way out of line here, but we are heading in that direction in this last page here. So bring it on back, please.

In fairness, remember, Tank, that you, a Brit, started this by asking about an American Constitutional right. So you may not agree with the American view of this, no matter how much it is discussed. You asked if America, not the UK, should re-look at the Second Amendment.

As for other things, let's not inflate the rhetoric to make points. Can we keep gulags and other inflammatory stuff out, possibly? Pretty please?

Thanks all.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Frankly I think we should do what the Soviets did and have gulags.

What crimes, in your opinion, justify being simultaneously worked and starved to death?

Why do you think it is appropriate for the government to profit from the justice system?

And frankly I kind of welcome the end of the world. Be nice to watch the dead weight fall off the planet.

I refer you to John Donne.

[McQ]

Frankly I think we should do what the Soviets did and have gulags.

What crimes, in your opinion, justify being simultaneously worked and starved to death?

Why do you think it is appropriate for the government to profit from the justice system?

And frankly I kind of welcome the end of the world. Be nice to watch the dead weight fall off the planet.

I refer you to John Donne.

And I refer you to my post, directly above yours, in which I asked for people to steer away from this and get back on track. Drop this line of argument, move away from the gulags, torture, personal feelings on prison effectiveness, and keep it civil. I did ask nicely before.

[Tom62]

My 2cts. I don't have problem with people owning guns. What I don't like is seeing guns in the hands of irresponsible people.  Here in Europe we frown upon the gun "laws" in America, because to us it looks like that every idiot would be able to get a gun without any problems. We also think it is madness that some street gangs are better armed than the police. On the other hand, I fully agree with BigMac that people must have the right to defend their homes and family. If a crazy punk would dare to threaten my family and I would have a gun in my possession than I would also plunge some big bullet holes in his body. Yes, we do have tougher gun laws here in Europe, but that doesn't stop criminals from buying guns on the black market. Nevertheless, the chances that an ordinary  burglar would carry a weapon here in Germany is practically zero. Another difference with the USA is that our welfare system guarantees that no-one has to live below the poverty line. So basically there is not a single valuable excuse for committing crimes here.

[Big Mac]

You sure are ignorant of reality.

I wonder Big Mac, did your father rape you from the age of six? Did he force you to watch whilst he raped your mum? Did he drug you and violate you for a camera? Did he hold you down and put pins under your scalp telling you that if you screamed, he'd cut your mums tits off? If that did happen to you from the age of six, i wonder how well adjusted you'd be in later life. I wonder how it would make you feel walking past a macdonalds as a homeless teenager, seeing all the happy families in there. I wonder how much rage that would make you feel, knowing your life had been robbed from you by a tyrant for a father, now dead by suicide. You think you'd just keep your chin up and get on with life without having learnt any of the social and intellectual skills necessary to function properly in this society, regardless of all the horrendous psychological baggage such an upbringing would entail? I really doubt it, but, it must be easy not having to give a shit about those less fortunate than yourself. Ignorance is bliss, as they say. The untold cycle of perpetual suffering happens across the planet on a daily basis, just like the true story above, and that doesn't give you pause to wonder why this happens?

You seem able to implant your own cozy existence upon the lives of the far, far less fortunate than yourself and expect them to abide by the same rules. It is a puzzling frame of mind to be bereft of all and any empathy for any fellow human and to be completely indifferent as to what makes other people tick. I'm simply interested in cause and prevention and the long term generational study into why this happens. You only seem interested in yourself and the harsh and gleeful retribution for anyone who interferes with your ego-imposed sadistic status quo.

What you seemed to glean from my earlier post was that i'm excusing the crimes people make because they've had a bad life. Not at all. If someone commits a crime, they deserve to be punished but i was more concerned with why people become criminals in the first place. You are lucky enough to be educated which means you are able to get a job and earn a living. What astounds me is that you seem to think anyone else should be able to do the same even though their background might be polar opposite to yours, having had all the tools for a normal life taken away from them before they had a chance. Put it this way, how many doctors, psychologists, bankers, teachers, and anyone else with a well paid profession are on death row? If there are any, i'm sure the proportion is incredibly low. The same probably goes for normal inmate rates. See the corellation there?

Yes, there are agencies and government run programmes who are there to help the needy but you cannot say with a straight face that there aren't enormous holes in those systems.

At least you're honest, i guess.

No, my father just showed me that a man must lift himself up higher than what life pushes on him. My father lead a hard life and was able to be a loving and good father. He taught me how to survive and thrive in a hostile world. He showed tenderness when it was necessary but he also showed tough love when it called for it. He taught me how to hunt, how to fish, how to seduce, how to sell myself in the world. He taught me how to be functional in a world that is chaotic and violent. He showed me skills that I hope to never use but have no qualms if it came to that. The more I live my life, the more I see the value in these simple but profound lessons. He had his own demons but he never abused us. I admit, I did enjoy a loving childhood from my parents who came from extremely dysfunctional families. I am not heartless completely despite my posturing.

I think we're taking extreme stances on our views because we both feel very passionate about these views. I agree that a lot of times people are desperate to commit certain crimes. The problem with being overly empathetic to it is that criminals will try to con that from you. Sometimes you have to be a little harsh to maintain order in society. It's a grim but real fact of life. I do care about other people. I really really do. If you let a violent criminal go on about his merry way, he will wreak havoc on a weaker element of society. He will target a small woman, a paraplegic, a blind child, an elderly man, etc. because they will not put up the same resistance as an able-bodied guy like me. My heart goes out to those folks. The person who preys on them is the person who I feel nothing but contempt and hatred for. A coward will do that. So I feel nothing but joy when I see people like that suffer horrible pain for their misdeeds on people.

I've had kids who I tutored who would be a pain in my ass. I'd do what my dad would do and show some tough love. I'd have a little speech I'd go through that went basically, "Look kid, you wanna ignore my lesson? There are literally 25 kids behind you who need help on this subject. Get out of my booth and go waste your life somewhere else. I'm gonna spend my time on someone who wants to learn." Harsh? Hell yeah! Abusive? Hell no! I was hard because I cared. To quote the great Johnny Cash, "This world is rough and if a man's gonna make it he's gotta be tough."

Every time it would work and the kid would shape up and be a model student. These kids weren't dumb at all, very quick and eager to learn the subject at hand. I'm talking kids who had nothing in life. Family was abusive and ignored them, etc. (this was at a Boys & Girls club) I have dealt with people who society has pushed away from its materialistic and vapid psyche. Tough love works most of the time. If I went all bleeding-heart on them, I'd be laughed at and a door mat. By being strong and determined I helped them see the value of behaving quicker than asking nicely. I have no idea how these kids turned out (it's been almost 7 years now since I last worked at that club, but I imagine it was a marked improvement over what they were used to) but I hope they are on to a brighter future. The sad part is I can't make a living tutoring kids from the ghetto. A lot of them showed potential and I admired their stubborn nature to refuse defeat from a world that told them to give up and die. Kind of made me cry manly tears.

I'm not heartless, I'm just not going to sympathize with the person who kicks down my door with the intent to rob me at 3 in the morning. They are going to receive a wall of lead from my end.

You know, there are times I've bought a meal for a panhandler if he honestly said he was hungry and willing to take a meal. If said person needed shoes and was believable I would go to Good Will and buy them a 10 dollar pair of shoes (hypothetical because that one never popped up). What burns me up is people who bemoan the lack of resources without trying them. Where I'm from you'd be amazed at the generosity of people if you demonstrate a basic human need.

But all my sympathy goes out the window when you victimize the weaker/vulnerable member of society. I don't care what your story is. You are now just a jackal who needs putting down.