Arizona's Illegal Immigration Law

[TheJackel]

TheJackel, I understand your point and for a lot of it I agree, what I disagree with is the condescending language and what appears to be hostility toward those that aren't as focused and/or concerned about the issue as you are. The only way I can understand that kind of approach is if you had provided evidence to why you think the problem is as severe as you make it seem. This kind of approach inhibits honest and open discussion. All I've been asking is that you drop that, not that you don't express your opinion, but I'm sure several people may have had something to say on the topic but didn't want to deal with the ravings, condescending tones and attacks from someone just to express them.

I realize it may have been easier if I said this at the start, however I'm usually blind to the best approach before hand.

I find it interesting because I often get called a racist or subjected to social dogmas in attempts to keep me silent on the issue.. Often do people bring up Fascism, Nazi, and other such condescending language in order to make condescending and suggestive rhetoric to which appears to be hostility to people like myself who are sick of being used like a piggy bank for illegal immigrants, or used as employment documents, or credit score banks.. This also inhibits honest open discussion.. And this discussion seems to also rely on the dogmatic opinion to dismiss the reality of the problems, costs, crimes, and victims.. If I even so much as talk about effective border control I almost instantly get ridiculed, and I find that rather interesting.. Under the OP, I find that Arizona is doing the right thing, as are we here in Boston to finally take action where nobody else cares to take action in order to protect our jobs, identity, schools, or hospitals from closures, and borders in order to encourage legal immigration, and legal immigrants.. I'm simply done being forced to pay for it, I can't even afford to go to the doctor even with health insurance, or even go to college.. If I get hit by an illegal driving a Car, I end up paying for him and myself as well as his legal fees and my legal fees. Tell me how that is justice?

[Kylyssa]

Trying to infuse the Hitler or Nazi fascists argument into the mix is playing circular games, and is entirely dishonest.

So it's trying to infuse Nazis into the mix by pointing out that the authors of the Arizona law and their close associates hang out with neo-Nazis?



The man in the Suit is JT Ready who just announced he's leading an armed force into the Arizona desert and is calling for land mines to be placed along the border.

Russell Pearce, Arizona Senator behind the immigration law is pals with JT Ready.


Pearce has also written supportive emails to neo-Nazi groups.  On the fifth of June, Pearce spoke at an anti-immigrant rally organized by others with neo-Nazi ties.  So why is it an infusion or some kind of card if actual neo-Nazis are involved?

Here's a fun link with links to assorted other evidence that Senator Pearce has neo-Nazi connections.

But you seem to be totally ignoring the objection to this law, that American citizens will be targeted, possibly detained, possibly harmed and certainly have their rights as American citizens infringed upon.  Now, my family doesn't live in Arizona but about half of them are of a skin color that could get them detained in Arizona.  I'm half Native American.  My relatives are as well.  A good deal of them are brown.  My white ancestors immigrated over a hundred years ago and my brown ancestors immigrated here thousands of years ago.  None of us are in any shape or form illegal aliens.  But if my cousins went to Arizona, they'd have to prove their citizenship.  Their teenage kids could get detained for being brown and not carrying around enough ID - and a driver's license or school ID is not being considered sufficient.

You'd seriously be OK with American citizens being detained until they could be proven citizens or worse - getting dumped across the border?  Keep in mind that the number of detention injuries and deaths in Arizona are suspiciously high, above national averages, and linked to one of the law's biggest supporters - Sheriff Joe Arpao, also a neo-Nazi associate.

[philosoraptor]

Not just American citizens being detained, but American citizens who happen to have the misfortune of not being white.  I can't picture officers pulling over carloads of white people just to make sure that they aren't in fact illegal Serbians or Poles or Germans or Canadians...well, you get the point.  This law leaves a lot of room for racial discrimination, and there's nothing to protect even legal citizens from that.

[pinkocommie]

I think that an important distinction, at least for me, is that I don't know what should be done about the general issue of illegal immigration, but I do know that the Arizona law is NOT the answer.  Like I said before, mandating racial profiling by law officials is wrong.  It's like saying 'we don't like illegal immigrants, so we're going to go ahead and make racism legal.'  Whaa?  In my opinion, the ends do not justify the means.  Demonizing and dehumanizing illegals isn't going to make the means any more justifiable to me, because there is NO reason why any American citizen should ever have to endure being harassed by police, simply because they're brown/otherwise foreign looking or sounding.  The very concept sounds entirely un-American, to be honest.

[Davin]

I find it interesting because I often get called a racist or subjected to social dogmas in attempts to keep me silent on the issue.. Often do people bring up Fascism, Nazi, and other such condescending language in order to make condescending and suggestive rhetoric to which appears to be hostility to people like myself who are sick of being used like a piggy bank for illegal immigrants, or used as employment documents, or credit score banks.. This also inhibits honest open discussion.. And this discussion seems to also rely on the dogmatic opinion to dismiss the reality of the problems, costs, crimes, and victims.. If I even so much as talk about effective border control I almost instantly get ridiculed, and I find that rather interesting.. Under the OP, I find that Arizona is doing the right thing, as are we here in Boston to finally take action where nobody else cares to take action in order to protect our jobs, identity, schools, or hospitals from closures, and borders in order to encourage legal immigration, and legal immigrants.. I'm simply done being forced to pay for it, I can't even afford to go to the doctor even with health insurance, or even go to college.. If I get hit by an illegal driving a Car, I end up paying for him and myself as well as his legal fees and my legal fees. Tell me how that is justice?

The only time I brought up Nazi-ish crap was when you made a statement that "6) Advocating for illegal aliens is like advocating illegal activity, credit fraud, tax fraud, employment fraud, health care fraud, federal crime, taxpayers should foot the bill for these peoples live ectra.." because I was showing you an equally fallacious argument in order to point out the fallacious nature of that statement. Advocating for illegal immigrants by trying to fix the problem without causing too much more suffering to people who have already suffered a great deal is in no way supporting any of that other crap. I in no way thought you were some kind of Nazi or racist, and if you noticed I never even accused you of being such.

I've offered no dogmatic opinions, I merely asked you to identify yours as dogmatic due to the lack of evidence you can provide. I've never attempted to dismiss illegal immigration as a problem, just asked how big the problem is. Providing personal revelation as evidence is something I reject due to it's consistently inaccurate performance in describing reality, the inability of being able to verify it and poor predictions that result from relying on it.

Also you mentioned several problems that may have other solutions to them. Health care costs isn't merely the result of people not paying for their medical treatment and there are several other options that would solve the problem. It seems like you're using illegal immigration as some kind of magic bullet that will solve all the problems we're currently experiencing. Of course this is probably only the appearance because of the topic of the thread. The only reason I bring it up is because there may be better options to fixing these problems which is why I'm asking for how big the problem is. Will the AZ illegal immigration bill fix the problem? I doubt it, but making our country worse seems to be solving the illegal immigration problem as over the last few years the rate at which people are illegally entering our country has dropped. Which is I want to know what the costs of fixing the illegal immigration are compared to the cost the problem is causing. Because while I'm perfectly willing to fix a problem without causing a bigger one, I'm not willing to make this country worse in order to fix a problem.

[TheJackel]

Kylyssa,

I don't condone it, and these Nazi's aren't the type of people I'd hang around. I don't think racial profiling is at all a good idea. My argument concerns all illegals of all national origins.. I don't care if you are white, black, red skin, Latino, Italian, or whatever. And Arizona's law doesn't have any language in it that says anything about a specific target race, color, or nationality.. What pathetic hate groups do on their own is irrelevant to the legislation/bill.. Most of what needs to be done is checking employers and all their employees.. Here in MA it's definitely not about racial profiling or hate, it's about the problems and solving them. It's important to separate the hate groups from those who see the need to fix these issues before they get worse. Boston is so far in dept that it literally can not afford to be illegal immigrants state wellfare bank. It simply can't support them, nor should it be in the first place.. So those things are what we are changing.

Davin,

I was aware of why you did it, but I found that suggestive considering it's been used as a common argument against any action against illegal immigrants.. I am only stating the typical rhetoric I get all the time, I find it funny though when I tell someone that does accuse me of being a Nazi that I am Brazilian And I never stated that solving the illegal immigrant problem would be a magic bullet to solve all the problems in this country.. I am clearly open to solutions as stated before that resolve the issue pertaining to illegal immigrants.. We are not here talking about various other problems that agreeably need to be addressed.. Sorry, but the boarders need to be closed and the best way to do that is take away what they come here illegally to get at the cost of the taxpayer.. Controlled legal immigrations is the only logical answer to wrestle control of the illegal immigration problem. The Federal Government Failed to do anything, so we are forced to do so on a state level. Some of us are already working to draft similar legislation in Minnesota.

And I have yet to see the illegal immigrants come up with any logical solutions, or even care to take accountability.. There is absolutely no cooperation from illegal immigrants because they know that they will in one way or another have to address and take responsibility for the problems they cause, and the crimes they have committed.. This isn't something you get away with in countries like New Zealand, you can't even move there or work there unless you have family there, or a skill set they require to which will benefit their country.. The United States needs to start doing the same, and spend more on helping the poor who already live here, keeping the nation stable, not over populating, protecting the wild life and reserves from needless over development.. There is literally a ton of reasons why we should control immigration...


And I am curious, do any of you have any ideas on addressing the problem?

[Thumpalumpacus]

The only real solution to illegal immigration is to stabilize Mexico.  People don't often leave their homeland unless the circumstances compel it.

[Tank]

Invite Mexico to become the 51st state, problem largely solved?

[Thumpalumpacus]

Hahah, they'd love the looser government but hate the trailer parks.

[pinkocommie]

The solution for a broken fence isn't to waste time and money to try to scare the sheep so they won't go through the hole anymore.  You mend the fence.  Were it that simple, of course, this wouldn't be as big of an issue as it is, but enacting a costly, racist law isn't helpful.

I say racist because of this part of the law:

Authorizes local police to make an arrest without a warrant of any person they believe is “removable from the United States.”

Also, it would seem at least some AZ law enforcement officials are unhappy about the law.

Arizona Association of Chiefs of Police
“The provisions of the bill remain problematic and will negatively affect the ability of law enforcement agencies across the state to fulfill their many responsibilities in a timely manner. While AACOP recognizes immigration as a significant issue in Arizona, we remain strong in our belief that it is an issue most appropriately addressed at the federal level.”

Sheriff Clarence Dupnik, Pima County, AZ
“…in the past few weeks Arizona became a model for the rest of the country of what not to do.  I have an enormous amount of respect for the men and women of my department… But no one can tell them what an illegal immigrant looks like and when it is ok to begin questioning a person along those lines. This law puts them in a no-win situation: They will be forced to offend and anger someone who is perhaps a citizen or here legally when they ask to see his papersâ€"or be accused of nonfeasance because they do not.  Law enforcement did not ask for and does not need this new tool. What we do need is assistance from the federal government in the form of effective strategies to secure the border.  Additionally, the federal government must take up this issue in the form of comprehensive immigration reform policy.”

(emphasis mine)

Sergeant Brian Soller, Mesa, AZ; President, Mesa Lodge, Fraternal Order of Police
"If we’re getting hammered with calls, is a misdemeanor [trespassing by an illegal immigrant] more important than a stabbing or shooting? No. The problem with this law is that it’s an unfunded mandate and could eat up a lot of manpower and cost a lot of money."

http://www.ilw.com/articles/2010,0603-giovagnoli.shtm

[Kylyssa]

What pathetic hate groups do on their own is irrelevant to the legislation/bill.

How is it irrelevant when hate group supporters and members wrote the bill?  How is the Senator who put it forward irrelevant?  How is the lawyer that actually drafted the bill irrelevant?  Their motives are relevant.  When the "pathetic hate groups" are linked to the creation of the bill it is relevant.

Please explain how, without racial profiling, an Arizona cop can intercept people who appear to be illegal immigrants, not as they are crossing the border but as they are walking down the street, living in a home, driving in a car, or sitting on a porch?  By what non-racial cues can a cop use to tell a person on the street in Arizona is an illegal immigrant?  There aren't any and they can't.  Which is why some groups of Arizona cops who can find no way to enforce this law without violating the rights of American citizens are refusing to enforce it.    

I don't like the crime surrounding illegal immigration at all.  But violating the rights of American citizens or surrendering freedoms is not they way to address it.  The Arizona law, that calls for police to intercept illegal immigrants using simple observation away from the border to determine who those illegal aliens are, requires police to hit or miss harass people with brown skin in Arizona.

All around the country police can already haul in someone who, in the commission of a crime or who has been stopped for a traffic violation, is believed to be an illegal alien.  But nowhere else but Arizona can they take a person off the street for violating no laws on the suspicion of them being an illegal alien.  Don't you understand why that's not a good idea?

[pinkocommie]

From what I've read, they revised the law so that they couldn't just bug anyone, though it sounds like the language of the law makes it easily manipulatable so that if a police officer wanted to bug someone, they could easily find a reason to.

A: A week after Gov. Brewer signed the law, the state legislature amended it to address some of the most egregious concerns, such as changing the requirement that police must determine immigration status during any “lawful contact” (for instance, saying hello to a bunch of kids in front of an ice cream stand, giving directions, helping a lost child) to any “lawful stop, detention, or arrest” (for instance, a traffic stop).  While this limits the reach of the law somewhat, the legislature also made it clear that police must make immigration inquiries in response to any “law or ordinance of a county, city, or town” which means that noise complaints, leaving a disabled car on the street, or failing to recycle could lead to questions about immigration status.  According to correspondence between sponsor Arizona State Senator Russell Pearce and Kris Kobach of the Immigration Reform Law Institute, these two changes made together ensure that virtually any contact could still allow police to “initiate [immigration] queries as well [1].”

This is from the same source I linked to in the last comment I left.

[TheJackel]

From what I've read, they revised the law so that they couldn't just bug anyone, though it sounds like the language of the law makes it easily manipulatable so that if a police officer wanted to bug someone, they could easily find a reason to.

A: A week after Gov. Brewer signed the law, the state legislature amended it to address some of the most egregious concerns, such as changing the requirement that police must determine immigration status during any “lawful contact” (for instance, saying hello to a bunch of kids in front of an ice cream stand, giving directions, helping a lost child) to any “lawful stop, detention, or arrest” (for instance, a traffic stop).  While this limits the reach of the law somewhat, the legislature also made it clear that police must make immigration inquiries in response to any “law or ordinance of a county, city, or town” which means that noise complaints, leaving a disabled car on the street, or failing to recycle could lead to questions about immigration status.  According to correspondence between sponsor Arizona State Senator Russell Pearce and Kris Kobach of the Immigration Reform Law Institute, these two changes made together ensure that virtually any contact could still allow police to “initiate [immigration] queries as well [1].”

This is from the same source I linked to in the last comment I left.

I don't agree with bugging anyone, and under that stipulation I wouldn't support the bill or law.. There must be accountability on both ends.. Besides, inquires really only need to be done in the schools (checking if all students are legal), businesses (especially farm, and construction companies), hospitals, or in the key areas to where illegals would require the use of in order to effectively remain here. Though I'm sure we can compose a solution to those who have lived and worked here for a long time without extended criminal records..

[TheJackel]

The only real solution to illegal immigration is to stabilize Mexico.  People don't often leave their homeland unless the circumstances compel it.

That is up the the Mexicans, and you can't expect us to become the Wellfare bank for another country. Especially a country that would likely just take the money and pocket it.

[TheJackel]

Authorizes local police to make an arrest without a warrant of any person they believe is “removable from the United States.”

So if they see a group of illegals jumping the fence, they ought not be allowed to detain, question, or make an inquiry? Sounds like advocating zero action policy.. I see no problems with allowing police to make judgment calls considering they are a border state where this kind of activity frequently occurs. Now I'm not saying there shouldn't be guidelines or further amendments to ensure accountability and protection for legal citizens. I think you are overstating a conspiracy theory to ethnically target individuals. You do realize that many of the legal immigrants in Arizona support this Bill correct?