Arizona's Illegal Immigration Law

[TheJackel]

Uh, that's great.  But what does it have to do with illegal immigrants?  I was talking about the immigrants who came here before the existence of the laws regarding the ownership of property, so this seems kind of irrelevant to that.

It didn't, it was related to the American Indian argument about Americans stealing land. American's don't technically own land for his argument to even be relevant, much less the fact that Diversity of Nationality has since nullified that argument anyways.

You assume that all people don't do these things.  Some of them do.  I'm not wholly aware of the political climate in Brazil, but many people who immigrate are coming from places where dissent against the government or the expression of a negative opinion of politics could get you killed.  Are you suggesting these people be martyrs?  Because I don't see what, if anything, this accomplishes.

I didn't assume people don't do those things.. The point is, America logically can't simply ingest everyone, or save everyone.. And I am suggesting that people that don't fight for their freedom even if it might get them killed will never change anything. Remember that when reflecting upon past wars where the people rose up to garnish their freedom from such corrupt governments..

Oh, but we do try to save the world, by invading other countries and starting wars that kill innocent people on both sides under the guise that we're fighting terrorism.  We contribute to making these places unsafe for the people who live there, because America has to act as the world's police.  I can't blame anyone for wanting to escape that.  Who said anything about ingesting (seriously, weird word choice) EVERY soul into America anyway?

Proxy wars, Pretro-Dollar, Petro-Euro.. Americans seemingly have no control over our own government in this regard. I voted Green Party.. and 911 wasn't a dream thank you very much.

That's great.  It also doesn't mean shit if YOU are willing to deport them when hundreds of businesses who employ illegal immigrants ARE NOT.  If you want to deport illegal immigrants, go work for the Arizona government.

OF course, cheap slave labor, and tax evasion is the new fun these days while ruining other peoples lives and taking their Jobs. Yeah, I would rather work for Arizona's Government than allow that back leeching take place.. And sorry, we are already pushing for that kind of legislation here in Boston ..

Maybe you should take your own advice about speaking for yourself.  You can't possibly know what everyone thinks or who they blame.  I'm also willing to wager that there are many people here with a greater understanding of the complex workings of capitalism than yourself, so the patronizing tone you're taking is pretty offensive.  I'm not stupid, and neither are most of the people here.

I do speak for myself thanks,I also just so happen to agree with other people in the country on this issue as you agree otherwise with the opposite side. And I try the best I can not to buy cheap foreign imports.. And I can't control the rest of the populous that sells themselves out to whom have taken me down with them. And you can feel free to show me anyone in the know of Capitalism that would even remotely argue that demand does not have the ultimate majority control over markets and jobs.. Sorry, but that's basic economics that everyone ought to know from grade school, otherwise yes, there will be others who will know more about the whole system than I do. Have I ever stated there wasn't?  And I'm not the only one here with the patronizing tone.. And I don't recall anyone calling you stupid, nor anyone else here as being stupid.  

And again, you DO live here legally.  Apparently, you take that for granted.  It's so easy to condemn immigrants and their actions and say they should just man up and either change their countries or immigrate legally, as if it's just that simple.  Armchair warrior is the term that comes to mind.  Nothing about your argument compels me.

They are not immigrants, they are illegal immigrants, and it's just that simple.. And yeah, law breakers, ID theft, ectr doesn't compel you, then go live in a place where there is nothing but Anarchy.. I guess only privileged people get to break laws, steal peoples ID's, ruin their Credit history, commit fraud.. Yeah I'm sure that's what the founding fathers meant by Liberty and "JUSTICE" for all. You can't have your cake and eat it to!

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

And your Point is? Where on the Statue does it say Federal crimes are ok to commit, or the illegal immigrants are above the Law? And where on that does that state illegal immigrants? To say give me your homeless does not state that illegals can come take what they want, break the laws, and be above reproach!.. Don't quote The statue of liberty in relation to illegal activity, fraud, and Identity theft ect. That's like saying we all should have the Liberty or right to commit these crimes..

[Davin]

Again, I can't make an illegal immigrant with a fake ID magically crawl out of your damn computer monitor to give you the evidence you seek. People like you really need to be taken on the streets and shown the real world. I have evidence, It's called what I know and see in the REAL WORLD! This isn't something I can fax you kiddo!.. For Pete's sake, I gave sample videos of hundreds if not thousands you can randomly find on youtube or elsewhere. And exactly what evidence do you want presented eh? Seriously, wake the ___k up.. And I know what you have said, and why you have dismissed links ect. However, your dismissal is due to your lack of actual education of wtf is going on in my neighborhood, who's who, who to avoid, what gangs are involved in what activity, where do these people live, what's the demographic of my own neighborhood and the surrounding neighborhoods. What's being discussed at the Town meetings and school boards. Police are usually very talkative about whats going on in your neighborhood if you ask. And the social groups in general are usually self evident after a while.

No source is 100% reliable, but there's a big difference between the articles based on assumptions and fallacy which you provided and articles based on data. You provided bullshit articles then because I don't accept bullshit as a reasonable source, you claim that I won't accept anything as a reasonable source? Untrue, but I don't even know why I'm even wasting time typing all this, you'll just make some baseless assumption, argue against your imagination while pretending it's me and/or completely ignore almost everything I say. Whatever is going on in your neighborhood, is not the whole nation, that's called sampling bias.

Again the evidence I have can't simply be given to you over the internet.. Sorry but that is a fact you are going to have to deal with.. Thus, please prove your own fallacy here that "evidence doesn't exist"... Easy to claim from behind the keyboard and a computer screen..

What kind of evidence is so magically resistant to the internet? Here is evidence for my fallacy: you claim that anyone who disagrees with you is just ignoring something, when asked for the something that they're ignoring you say you can't provide it, so; anyone who disagrees with you is ignoring that which you can't provide.

There's lot's of evidence you could provide if it existed, so in the absence of evidence for your claim let's just call it speculation and you can stop claiming that people that don't align with your point of view are ignoring the "evidence" (which doesn't exist). And once again, discuss what I say and not something you just made up.

And yep, you can certainly claim that anything I can provide you over the internet is "made up".. Hence why I conceded that fact that no matter what I post, provide, or show could be dismissed, denied, or simply stated as "made up"...

What I was claiming was "made up" was whatever you're responding to, because it's hardly ever what I'm saying, it's usually something else. This is a good example: I clearly said "And once again, discuss what I say and not something you just made up." The irony of your response to this statement is hilarious: Instead of responding to my comment about you not responding to my comments, you're responding to something else while pretending to respond to my comment.

Your argument is like claiming alcoholics can't be proven to kill people in car accidents over the internet because any evidence short of one's self being hit by a drunk driver can be dismissed as made up, staged, or non-empirical. And this is especially true over the internet without going out in the real world to witness it, ask questions, or call what-ever sources you might find to be reputable..

That isn't what my argument is, that is another straw man. My argument is that you providing articles based on nothing as the evidence for your argument means that your argument is based on nothing as well. My argument is that you're going around acting like you have facts and that anyone that doesn't align their views with yours on illegal immigration is just ignoring the problem or is just ignorant or not blessed with the amazing insight you have, when you don't have anything to back up what you're saying.

[Thumpalumpacus]

I have to admit, I'd like them to check in first; I don't sneak into another's house, myself.  At the same time, being a father, I can understand doing whatever it takes to ensure the safety, health, and opportunity of my progeny.

Over 20,000 have died in the last four years in the drug war ravaging Mexico, and if I lived there you can bet your backside that I'd GTFO promptly, through whatever means available.  

Also, Jackel, you're arguing both sides of a point when you say, "They steal IDs" and then turn around and say "They're not paying taxes," because the entire point of the ID theft is to provide them with legitimate cover in the workforce -- meaning that their earnings are indeed taxed.  As a retail manager living in Southern California, I can tell you from personal experience that this is so.  In October 2007, and again in June of 2008, and again in January, bp (yes, the oil-spill guys) had to pay fines and release workers who were discovered to have used false ID or SSNs.

The only thing that irks me is marchers marching under a Mexican flag, really, and even that isn't too much for me, because I'm not big on rah-rah jingoism.

I think I love you.

[philosoraptor]

I have evidence, It's called what I know and see in the REAL WORLD! This isn't something I can fax you kiddo!.. For Pete's sake, I gave sample videos of hundreds if not thousands you can randomly find on youtube or elsewhere. And exactly what evidence do you want presented eh? Seriously, wake the ___k up.. And I know what you have said, and why you have dismissed links ect. However, your dismissal is due to your lack of actual education of actually goes on in illegal immigrant subculture.. Sorry, links I provided you accurately reflect everything I see on the streets, hear on the streets, and know what's going down in various neighborhoods..

Sorry, but your own personal, anecdotal experience does not qualify as evidence or fact.  Your opinion and experiences are in no way indicative of the majority, so please remove your cranium from your anus and stop pretending as if you know something the rest of us don't.

[TheJackel]

None of that even remotely addresses the main principles of the argument. And your ranting was useless considering that I have already conceded that there is no possible source I can provide you to which can be displayed on the internet that could be accepted as evidence.. We can even dismiss or ignore anything I know on the subject as well and it will not change the facts that illegals are illegally here, and all have committed a federal crime.. Sorry, but an illegal immigrant, should I provide one, is indeed evidence of Federal crime. Should I post the Laws for you?, Ok I will for giggles. And btw your argument that legals also commit these crimes is definitely irrelevant! WHy, because I expect that they too should be held accountable according to the law...What makes you think that magically makes your argument even relevant in regards to illegal alien legalities, or criminal activity? So let's go over some definitions and laws shall we?

Fraud:

Wiki:

In the broadest sense, a fraud is an intentional deception made for personal gain or to damage another individual; the related adjective is fraudulent.

The specific legal definition varies by legal jurisdiction. Fraud is a crime, and also a civil law violation. Defrauding people or entities of money or valuables is a common purpose of fraud, but there have also been fraudulent "discoveries", e.g. in science, to gain prestige rather than immediate monetary gain.

Such as defrauding the American taxpayer, employment fraud, tax evasion, credit fraud, falsifying documents, falsifying employment applications, Falsifying I-9 or other tax forms, knowingly working for employers without documentation, purchasing falsified documents, having false documents, opening accounts such as bank accounts and utilities with false documentation, being paid under the table according revenue laws,

In Civil law, I am actually able to sue any illegal immigrants for just crossing the boarder, or for any costs associated to their being here. Hence, defrauding the taxpayer of monies. Such costs associated with illegal entry, education, health care, or the simple lacking legal immigration status is a civil violation.



Crime:
Wiki:

Crime is the breach of rules or laws for which some governing authority (via mechanisms such as legal systems) can ultimately prescribe a conviction. Individual human societies may each define crime and crimes differently. While every crime violates the law

What Is The Law Concerning Employment And Illegal Aliens?

The Immigration Reform and Control Act (IRCA) passed in 1986 prohibits an employer from knowingly hiring, recruiting, or referring illegal aliens for work in the United States, whether the individual is in the country illegally or because their immigration and residency status does not allow employment. The law also extends to employers who discover that an employee is an illegal alien after hiring.

So for example, The person here who hired these illegal immigrants to work in their home are also violators of the following, and thus are apart of the criminal activity..http://www.reportillegals.com/law.html

Summary of Federal Immigration and Nationality Act Section 8 USC 1324

    "Any person who . . . encourages or induces an alien to . . . reside . . . knowing or in reckless disregard of the fact that such . . . residence is . . . in violation of law, shall be punished as provided . . . for each alien in respect to whom such a violation occurs . . . fined under title 18 . . . imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both."

    Section 274 felonies under the federal Immigration and Nationality Act, INA 274A(a)(1)(A):

    A person (including a group of persons, business, organization, or local government) commits a federal felony when she or he:

           1.

              assists an alien s/he should reasonably know is illegally in the U.S. or who lacks employment authorization, by transporting, sheltering, or assisting him or her to obtain employment, or
           2.

              encourages that alien to remain in the U.S. by referring him or her to an employer or by acting as employer or agent for an employer in any way, or
           3.

              knowingly assists illegal aliens due to personal convictions.

    Penalties upon conviction include criminal fines, imprisonment, and forfeiture of vehicles and real property used to commit the crime. Anyone employing or contracting with an illegal alien without verifying his or her work authorization status is guilty of a misdemeanor. Aliens and employers violating immigration laws are subject to arrest, detention, and seizure of their vehicles or property. In addition, individuals or entities who engage in racketeering enterprises that commit (or conspire to commit) immigration-related felonies are subject to private civil suits for treble damages and injunctive relief.

http://www.thesocialcontract.com/artman ... 1113.shtml

In March 2000, a group of U.S. citizens and legal immigrant workers did just that. The workers alleged that two Washington state fruit-packing companies had conspired with a labor contractor to hire illegal immigrants to depress the wages of legally authorized workers. In their Sept. 3 ruling, the Ninth Circuit panel agreed that the injuries suffered by the workers were "direct," which is a crucial technical element proving causation under RICO. The judges went on to note, "We are unable to discern a more direct victim of illegal conduct." The Ninth Circuit ruling comes on the heels of a 2001 decision by the Second Circuit U.S. Court of Appeals. In that case, the court ruled that under RICO, a Connecticut cleaning company had standing to sue a competitor who had gained an unfair advantage through the systematic practice of hiring illegal immigrants. These two rulings, by two separate federal appellate courts, will dramatically change the way immigration policy is enforced in America.

In fact me and other local citizens, and legal immigrants are in the process of doing just that. If suing is the only means to control the job market, and who is here legally and illegally so be it. And here is something we are doing to help protect ourselves from illegal immigrants without having to sue. Illegal immigrants are one of the main reasons why our state is in such massive dept, and why poor American, or legal immigrants can't compete for jobs when the illegals work for lower wages to which businesses take advantage of.

http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/ ... ves_6.html

Other examples why we are fighting illegals in regards to state budgets, and hospital closures.

[youtube:p93n6226]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjPBtfpn8wI[/youtube:p93n6226]
[youtube:p93n6226]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDjZ6gzo0C4[/youtube:p93n6226]


And again for the record I concede that all this can be dismissed as evidence, to which includes my own experiences because we apparently know nothing, or have no evidence about what we know about the problem so we can magically ignore it.

Hence who pays for this?

[youtube:p93n6226]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrvWtg4T1D8[/youtube:p93n6226]

How many of those illegals even stopped to give a shit about the person they hit?

This is interesting eh..

[youtube:p93n6226]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cY6t2ckpb5g[/youtube:p93n6226]

[TheJackel]

Sorry, but your own personal, anecdotal experience does not qualify as evidence or fact.  Your opinion and experiences are in no way indicative of the majority, so please remove your cranium from your anus and stop pretending as if you know something the rest of us don't.

Actually they do, just not to you because I have no means to sharing them with you over the internet. empirical evidence does not require you the 3rd party over the internet to exist as a fact. But I will politely leave at that, and I'm sure the rest of the legal Citizens here in the USA will address and asses their own problems with illegal immigrants whether you think these problems don't exist or are perhaps dismissive do to any lack of 100 percent accurate statistics, or data.. And since you are willing to dismiss the illegals themselves as evidence, this suggests there is no evidence that can possibly be presented to you to verify any problems associated to them. This is regardless of the costs of our own legal citizenry, and is dishonest play to suggest we ought to incur these additional costs as if it were our duty to be a well-fare nation to the world. I will thus concede all inaccuracies so American's and legal immigrants can go on ignoring that there is even a problem because you claim I can't prove there is a problem over the internet with 100% accurate data.. I can't even prove data even exists considering it's just a concept.. And before you call someone on pretending to know something you don't, stop acting like you don't know anything.. Sorry, but 100% of them are all by definition criminals who partook in criminal activity and federal crime.. My empirical evidence is backed by the Laws written.. This includes Federal, criminal, and civil definitions, and codes.. Deal with it.  The rest based on my own experience will be conceded to that of my own experiences, and that of other citizens here in MA who deal with these problems on a daily bases.  3,000 to 4,000 border crossings a day does not = no fraudulent costs to the taxpayer, or federal crimes in regards to any of them!

[youtube:3rr3ag2t]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aP21E_xvltg[/youtube:3rr3ag2t]

This guy is awesome and 100% how I feel.. And my Goal here in MA. However I have an additional proposal, all those in favor for illegal immigration, or support these illegals ought to foot the bill by filing for it on their taxes, and those that do will incur the sum total costs of all illegal immigration costs while exempting those of us who don't from having to.  This includes all medical, legal, or state and educational assistance.. This way I can use my money to support real charities that don't demand or take my money and assume that they are privilege to it even if it means breaking the law..

[pinkocommie]

None of that even remotely addresses the main principles of the argument. And your ranting was useless considering that I have already conceded that there is no possible source I can provide you to which can be displayed on the internet that could be accepted as evidence..

I'd be careful who you accuse of ranting, TJ.  Considering you've conceded that you are unable to provide sufficient evidence for your claims over this medium, it would seem your dedication to continuing to make those claims which you admittedly can't provide sufficient evidence for might be more appropriately considered 'ranting' than anything anyone else on this thread has said.

[philosoraptor]

Acting like I don't know anything?  That doesn't even make sense.  Not that I find this kind of statement surprising at this point, since you've already implied that we're uneducated and you know more than most of us.  Make up your mind.

Lets get a few things straight.  I don't support illegal immigration.  I don't think that those who are here illegally should be allowed to run amock and break laws without consequence.  I don't object entirely to everything you've said, but mostly how you've said it.  Obviously, illegal immigration is a problem that needs to be dealt with, but I very much disagree with your methods of expressing this.

So far, you've come across as a smarmy know it all with zero compassion or empathy.  THAT is what I take primary issue with.  You catch more flies with honey than vinegar.  Plenty of people have objected to illegal immigration and even said some of the same things you have said without sounding like an insufferable, heartless douche.

[thelittlefinch]

I've noticed all the people who seem to have problems with illegal immigrants are those who were fortunate enough to have been born in the US.  I get the feeling some people might feel differently if it were one of their parents or relatives facing deportation.  I find the lack of compassion a little disheartening.

America was founded by immigrants.  Immigrants who stole from the natives, and killed them.  Unless you happen to be a member of one of the Native American tribes that have always been here, you too are an immigrant.  I have a hard time saying that anyone who wants to be here shouldn't be given that opportunity.

False. I was born in the Philippines and I still have a problem with illegal immigrants.

[TheJackel]

None of that even remotely addresses the main principles of the argument. And your ranting was useless considering that I have already conceded that there is no possible source I can provide you to which can be displayed on the internet that could be accepted as evidence..

I'd be careful who you accuse of ranting, TJ.  Considering you've conceded that you are unable to provide sufficient evidence for your claims over this medium, it would seem your dedication to continuing to make those claims which you admittedly can't provide sufficient evidence for might be more appropriately considered 'ranting' than anything anyone else on this thread has said.

I never said i wasn't ranting.. This is a heated debate and I will agree we are both ranting.. And I have provided sufficient evidence because most of them are well grounded with the legal statutes of our laws. The statistical data of course is likely not accurate in either direction within various links I have provided, and I have conceded they aren't. However, it's a fact that undocumented people are going to incur costs to the taxpayer, education system, health care system, legal system to which shouldn't even exist.., thus they should be prevented, prosecuted, and dealt with. You won't see me advocating clemency to legal immigrant, or legal citizen criminals because feel sorry for them, or their children and families either. So, this includes no bias towards legals who commit crimes either. In my view, no-body should be granted to be above reproach, or accountability just because someone will feel sorry for them.. Illegal immigration is not a victimless crime, or a costless one, and they all ought to know this when they jump the fence. This may be a rant, but it's a justly stated one with merit..

1) Are all illegals committing fraud? According to civil, federal, and criminal law.. yes!
2) Are we taxpayers footing the bill? Yes.. Supported by me paying taxes
3) Are illegals straining state resources? Yes. illegals aren't cost free
4) Are illegals getting state intuition and scholarships? Yes and No... Depends if your state allows it, or partakes in it, or has programs that fund and support it.
5) Are all illegals by definition illegal? yes
6) Are illegals subject to jurisdiction? No, we can't even try them for Treason, or call them to serve in the armed forces
7) Are illegals voting, Yes.. Supported by statistics on undocumented votes, ficticious SSN's, Stolen SSN's, or purchased SSN's.. As well as fake ID's ectra..
Are all illegals voting? Not likely, and some don't vote recognizing they have no right to vote..
9) Do illegals attempt to effect legislation of our laws, and how our government operates? Yes, if need be I can link to thousands of protest videos on youtube
10) Can the amount or number of estimated illegal entry from illegals be considered an invasion? Yes, especially when the majority are of one origin of ethnicity ranging from 3k to 4k a day. And especially so when they demand rights, vote, or commit crimes ect.
11) Are all illegals bad people? this is subjective to the morality game.. Is one that comes here and breaks the law a good person? Is federal crime, or fraud the indicator of who's naughty or nice? In my -->opinion<--, yes.. Especially when it's recklessly assumed and demanded, or taken.
12) Is there any excuse to come here illegally? No
13) Should America be expected to open doors, and sacrifice wild life, space, or resources? No
14) Do some illegals positively contribute? Yes, but surely doesn't excuse their crimes, or accountability, or excuse the need to close the boarders and stop illegal immigration.
15) Is controlled legal immigration important to the well being of this country? Most Definitely is.
16) Should anyone be above reproach and accountability for their actions? No
17) Are illagals citizens, and should the even have any legal rights here other than the obvious civil protections under UN law? No..


I could add more but I think we get the point..

[TheJackel]

Acting like I don't know anything?  That doesn't even make sense.  Not that I find this kind of statement surprising at this point, since you've already implied that we're uneducated and you know more than most of us.  Make up your mind.

Lets get a few things straight.  I don't support illegal immigration.  I don't think that those who are here illegally should be allowed to run amock and break laws without consequence.  I don't object entirely to everything you've said, but mostly how you've said it.  Obviously, illegal immigration is a problem that needs to be dealt with, but I very much disagree with your methods of expressing this.

So far, you've come across as a smarmy know it all with zero compassion or empathy.  THAT is what I take primary issue with.  You catch more flies with honey than vinegar.  Plenty of people have objected to illegal immigration and even said some of the same things you have said without sounding like an insufferable, heartless douche.

Point taken. I wasn't exactly clean with my responses, and don't mistaken me for no empathy because I'm open to various options so long as it effectively solves the entire problem, and prevents it from continuing or recurring.. I have even suggested means to which they can serve community service as justice served to pay for the crimes they committed that don't exceed what only relates their illegality of citizenry, and costs. This which btw is far more heartful that putting them all in prison. It's hardly being heartless, vs expecting accountability and action to effectively fix the problem. And sadly, it's not going to include no accountability on the part of the illegal immigrants, and may even result in selective deportations based on criminal records.. If American's were doing this to Canada, I don't think the Canadian's would be all too happy about it.. Sometimes you have to take the hard-ass route to get something fixed.  And that is something Arizona is attempting to do.. And if i was heartless I would ignore how this all victimizes the taxpayer, legal immigrants, and law abiding citizens who are equally expected to be accountable for their actions. I hope we can at least agree on that.

[pinkocommie]

None of that even remotely addresses the main principles of the argument. And your ranting was useless considering that I have already conceded that there is no possible source I can provide you to which can be displayed on the internet that could be accepted as evidence..

I'd be careful who you accuse of ranting, TJ.  Considering you've conceded that you are unable to provide sufficient evidence for your claims over this medium, it would seem your dedication to continuing to make those claims which you admittedly can't provide sufficient evidence for might be more appropriately considered 'ranting' than anything anyone else on this thread has said.

I never said i wasn't ranting.. This is a heated debate and I will agree we are both ranting.. And I have provided sufficient evidence because most of them are well grounded with the legal statutes of our laws. The statistical data of course is likely not accurate in either direction within various links I have provided, and I have conceded they aren't. However, it's a fact that undocumented people are going to incur costs to the taxpayer, education system, health care system, legal system to which shouldn't even exist.., thus they should be prevented, prosecuted, and dealt with. You won't see me advocating clemency to legal immigrant, or legal citizen criminals because feel sorry for them, or their children and families either. So, this includes no bias towards legals who commit crimes either. In my view, no-body should be granted to be above reproach, or accountability just because someone will feel sorry for them.. Illegal immigration is not a victimless crime, or a costless one, and they all ought to know this when they jump the fence. This may be a rant, but it's a justly stated one with merit..

1) Are all illegals committing fraud? According to civil, federal, and criminal law.. yes!
2) Are we taxpayers footing the bill? Yes.. Supported by me paying taxes
3) Are illegals straining state resources? Yes. illegals aren't cost free
4) Are illegals getting state intuition and scholarships? Yes and No... Depends if your state allows it, or partakes in it, or has programs that fund and support it.
5) Are all illegals by definition illegal? yes
6) Are illegals subject to jurisdiction? No, we can't even try them for Treason, or call them to serve in the armed forces
7) Are illegals voting, Yes.. Supported by statistics on undocumented votes, ficticious SSN's, Stolen SSN's, or purchased SSN's.. As well as fake ID's ectra..
Are all illegals voting? Not likely, and some don't vote recognizing they have no right to vote..
9) Do illegals attempt to effect legislation of our laws, and how our government operates? Yes, if need be I can link to thousands of protest videos on youtube
10) Can the amount or number of estimated illegal entry from illegals be considered an invasion? Yes, especially when the majority are of one origin of ethnicity ranging from 3k to 4k a day. And especially so when they demand rights, vote, or commit crimes ect.
11) Are all illegals bad people? this is subjective to the morality game.. Is one that comes here and breaks the law a good person? Is federal crime, or fraud the indicator of who's naughty or nice? In my -->opinion<--, yes.. Especially when it's recklessly assumed and demanded, or taken.
12) Is there any excuse to come here illegally? No
13) Should America be expected to open doors, and sacrifice wild life, space, or resources? No
14) Do some illegals positively contribute? Yes, but surely doesn't excuse their crimes, or accountability, or excuse the need to close the boarders and stop illegal immigration.
15) Is controlled legal immigration important to the well being of this country? Most Definitely is.
16) Should anyone be above reproach and accountability for their actions? No
17) Are illagals citizens, and should the even have any legal rights here other than the obvious civil protections under UN law? No..


I could add more but I think we get the point..

After 6 pages of this, I'm pretty confident I understand your opinion.  But, it still sounds like a lot of opinion with little empirical data to back it up.  I would still like to see some empirical data on the subject from a source who is a bit less emotionally involved in the issue.

[i_am_i]

So for example, The person here who hired these illegal immigrants to work in their home are also violators of the following, and thus are apart of the criminal activity..http://www.reportillegals.com/law.html

That "violator" would be me, but what I said was that for all I know my yardman and cleaning lady are illegal immigrants. I never asked them for their papers for goodness sake. I found them through references from others who employ them. I very much doubt that they are here unlawfully but I honestly don't know that for sure. What I know is they're responsible and trustworthy and I like them both very much.

But you, you seem to actually want them to be here unlawfully, in which case you think that it's my duty to turn them in to the authorities, these people who have become members of my little family, who are my friends, whose sons and daughters I've come to know and are always welcome in my house, these people who treat my house and property as if it was their own and whose work is beyond any reproach, these people who I consider myself very fortunate to have in my life.

I can't help but get the feeling that you're revealing something about yourself that I'd prefer not to name or make obvious comparisons to, and even if I'm wrong, Jackal, it's still very evident that, as Arthur Miller said, your kind of justice would freeze beer.

[Davin]

TheJackel, I understand your point and for a lot of it I agree, what I disagree with is the condescending language and what appears to be hostility toward those that aren't as focused and/or concerned about the issue as you are. The only way I can understand that kind of approach is if you had provided evidence to why you think the problem is as severe as you make it seem. This kind of approach inhibits honest and open discussion. All I've been asking is that you drop that, not that you don't express your opinion, but I'm sure several people may have had something to say on the topic but didn't want to deal with the ravings, condescending tones and attacks from someone just to express them.

I realize it may have been easier if I said this at the start, however I'm usually blind to the best approach before hand.

[TheJackel]

So for example, The person here who hired these illegal immigrants to work in their home are also violators of the following, and thus are apart of the criminal activity..http://www.reportillegals.com/law.html

That "violator" would be me, but what I said was that for all I know my yardman and cleaning lady are illegal immigrants. I never asked them for their papers for goodness sake. I found them through references from others who employ them. I very much doubt that they are here unlawfully but I honestly don't know that for sure. What I know is they're responsible and trustworthy and I like them both very much.

But you, you seem to actually want them to be here unlawfully, in which case you think that it's my duty to turn them in to the authorities, these people who have become members of my little family, who are my friends, whose sons and daughters I've come to know and are always welcome in my house, these people who treat my house and property as if it was their own and whose work is beyond any reproach, these people who I consider myself very fortunate to have in my life.

I can't help but get the feeling that you're revealing something about yourself that I'd prefer not to name or make obvious comparisons to, and even if I'm wrong, Jackal, it's still very evident that, as Arthur Miller said, your kind of justice would freeze beer.

Why would I want them to be unlawful? Nowhere did I state that they were, and I merely used it as an example as noted in the post above with "for example". My Kind of Justice is what exactly? What kind of Justice did that guy in that video get when the illegal totaled his car? You seriously think me and other taxpayers being forced to pay for illegals is Justice? Does Justice for all just but illegal immigrants who commit a crime? This is hardly Freeze Beer. So I get the feeling that your Justice is that "if for example" you like someone that they ought to be above the law and never be held accountable? As one would or could say, your justice is Anarchistic.