If seeing is believing

[dionysiou]

ok guys, lets be hypothetical for a moment. If somebody were to perform a miracle right before your eyes and they were a christian and claimed that it was the power of the Holy Spirit at work, would you reconsider your views? Or if a good friend of yours came to you and said they had a spiritual experience from God would you reconsider your views? I hear all the time about how there is "no evidence" but if some sort of evidence came forward in a supernatural form, be it vision, real life miracle or anything else supernatural, would you  rethink things?  So please give me some feedback on how you would react and wether it would be life changing for you.

[curiosityandthecat]

Regarding the miracle: "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." What constitutes a miracle is totally subjective. One person's miracle is another person's magnet trick.

Regarding the friend: been there, done that, wasn't convinced. Felt sad for him, actually. He had a "re-awakening to God" after blacking out at the wheel after a night of drinking and smashing into a telephone pole. It hit on the passenger side and he wasn't harmed too badly. That's not God sending you a message; that's Jack Daniels spanking your ass. Our brains are wired to accept thoughts of the supernatural readily; it's part of how we evolved. Remember, if you think a vengeful god or a werewolf will kill you for going into a swamp at night, you're probably going to live to pass your genes on. We've moved on from that, though. That religious part of our brains is truly vestigial.

Regarding the evidence: I think we'd have to decide exactly what constitutes evidence for the supernatural. Technically, what is considered supernatural is only what defies our definition of the natural. To most people, what goes on at the quantum scale is utterly supernatural. One thing being in two places simultaneously? Sounds supernatural to me. It isn't.

In short, given what we know about neuroscience and the universe, I think the chances of the appearance of any conscious and willing supernatural force (i.e., God) popping up is approaching zero.

[Squid]

Maybe it's my background in psychology but personal experience just wouldn't necessarily do it for me.  If one of my friends claimed they had a spiritual experience my actual honest initial reaction would be to wonder if they just got out of rehab or if they need a mental health evaluation.  People's personal claims and personal experience are just too unreliable from other people and my own perception.  Now, if excavators pulled a big ass, old iron age wooden ship off of Mt. Ararat then that would be more down the lines of something that would make me take notice.  Just remember, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

[skwurll]

If I saw a miracle with my own two eyes that had no explanation other than supernatural forces, I'd certainly listen to what they had to say, but I'd remain a skeptic.

[elliebean]

If somebody were to perform a miracle right before your eyes and they were a christian and claimed that it was the power of the Holy Spirit at work, would you reconsider your views?

What makes you think they haven't?

And the answer is no; when something unexplained occurs, it's still unexplained, even if someone claims it was from god. Until they prove a god was responsible for it (they would first have to prove a god existed - not gonna happen), or until some other explaination is proven to be the likeliest cause, the event remains unexplained.

...if a good friend of yours came to you and said they had a spiritual experience from God would you reconsider your views?

Let's not forget, many of us are products of religious households. My entire family - hundreds of people - are all biblical literalists. I've heard my share of stories. I'm not impressed. I was a christian for many years. I used to think I was having those kinds of experiences, too. But I've grown more discerning since then. Obviously.

[Sophus]

I've had a relative claiming to have visions. Not that they were anything spectacular. Things like having an OBE while dreaming and seeing me lying down upstairs exactly as I really was when she came up to find me. Not only would I have to be the one experiencing it but I would still be skeptical it means anything supernatural because our memory from dreams fade hastily, and any "specific details" could be fudged. Especially with such strong credulity to believe in the supernatural.

If by miracle, you mean a burning bush, a parted sea or a man walking on water, I would hopefully consider that I may have gone insane.

As for other miracles such as winning the lottery or a random act of kindness coming at just the right time... when the improbable happens to us it might feel like a miracle, but it's just the way things work out. Plus our minds are in a searching mode for any sort of an answer from God.

[Whitney]

I would have the person enter this:

At JREF, we offer a one-million-dollar prize to anyone who can show, under proper observing conditions, evidence of any paranormal, supernatural, or occult power or event. The JREF does not involve itself in the testing procedure, other than helping to design the protocol and approving the conditions under which a test will take place. All tests are designed with the participation and approval of the applicant. In most cases, the applicant will be asked to perform a relatively simple preliminary test of the claim, which if successful, will be followed by the formal test. Preliminary tests are usually conducted by associates of the JREF at the site where the applicant lives. Upon success in the preliminary testing process, the "applicant" becomes a "claimant."

To date, no one has passed the preliminary tests.

http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge.html

but seriously, my grandmother claimed that my grandfather visited her after his death on more than one occasion....she was very serious about thinking this happened and I'm sure she did have that experience but I think she actually had it in her sleep.  After all, if our dead relatives were really able to visit us after their deaths would it not make sense for them to make sure to say their final goodbyes to all their close relatives?  In this particular case the person that really needed a visit (if for whatever reason they could only pic one person) was my mom because she needed to be snapped out of the state she was in at the time.  So, it really just didn't make any sense so while I wanted to believe by grandmother (and pretended that I did believe her) I couldn't buy her story....and this happened while I was still a theist.

[i_am_i]

ok guys, lets be hypothetical for a moment. If somebody were to perform a miracle right before your eyes and they were a christian and claimed that it was the power of the Holy Spirit at work, would you reconsider your views?

No.

[dionysiou]

so from what im reading it would have to be something that YOU know was supernatural and that YOU couldnt deny. Even then it wouldnt be enough for some of you, maybe youd need another miracle on top of it. a lot of skeptics

[Ellainix]

so from what im reading it would have to be something that YOU know was supernatural and that YOU couldnt deny. Even then it wouldnt be enough for some of you, maybe youd need another miracle on top of it. a lot of skeptics

If a pink puppy walked up to me and then said "Jesus died for your sins" then winked at me on a daily basis, I would start believing.

[dionysiou]

 thats one supernatural form of evidence

[Whitney]

You know..some people think that aliens visited ancient civilizations and that is how this whole god business started.  While I don't think aliens visited us it does illustrate how what seems miraculous during a certain time period may just be very advanced science.

For me personally it would depend on if it truly were a miracle and that I wasn't just being tricked, that it happened more than once, and that it was the type of miracle that could only point to the existence of a god.

[notself]

dionysiou,

There is a classic question for Christians such as yourself.  Perhaps you can answer it for me.  Why doesn't your god heal amputees?

When an Veteran from the Iraqi War has his or her amputated leg restored through prayer to your god, then I might consider that a miracle.

[dionysiou]

although i myself have never seen amputated limbs being healed, friends of mine have claimed they saw it, one in particular was on a crusade in russia and he tells me God was healing amputated limbs there. I trust his words because he has no reason to lie to me, but you dont know me personally so it may be hard for you to take my word for it.

[LoneMateria]

ok guys, lets be hypothetical for a moment. If somebody were to perform a miracle right before your eyes and they were a christian and claimed that it was the power of the Holy Spirit at work, would you reconsider your views?

Right on the spot ... absolutely not.  Let's look back in time for a moment (so to speak) back to the Ancient Greeks.  They built these grand temples that people would flock to because the gods powers could be seen.  These elaborate inventions simulated magic which amazed the masses and all the temples were looking for the next big attraction.  Just because you are unable to explain something and someone claims its the power of their god doesn't mean that this something is unexplainable or that their claim is true.  

This question reminds me of part of "godless: How an Evangelical Preacher Became One of America's Leading Atheists" by Dan Barker.  For a little while in his youth Dan was part of a stage crew for a "faith healer".  He recalls how sometimes when people in line waiting to get on stage were asked to sit in a wheelchair before getting on and when they wheeled about halfway on stage the "healer" would say, "Stop and stand up and walk over here!"  The crowd would just assume that the person was bound to a wheelchair and would be "healed" and be able to walk again by the power of the Christian god.    

Or if a good friend of yours came to you and said they had a spiritual experience from God would you reconsider your views?

Why should I believe someone else's "spiritual experience"?  Don't get me wrong i'm not saying that they are lying i'm just saying they are probably not being objective.  Like curiosityandthecat's friend.  Also if your god gave someone else this "experience" to save them from hell then why not give me that experience?  If your god is all knowing and wants to do so he can present himself to me in a way that would remove all doubt.  He hasn't done this to me like he did to my hypothetical friend, but he could do it and yet choses not to.    He must want me to burn in hell.  Otherwise he would do it.  So either that is the case or my friend is mistaken and there probably isn't any divine intervention (or divine being).

I hear all the time about how there is "no evidence" but if some sort of evidence came forward in a supernatural form, be it vision, real life miracle or anything else supernatural, would you  rethink things?  So please give me some feedback on how you would react and wether it would be life changing for you.

If there was evidence for a god's existence then I'd believe in a god.  I have pretty strict standards for evidence though.  I wouldn't be swayed by a vision or random chance.  I would need objective evidence that can be tested.  If I saw a god appear to me in a vision or something I would honestly think i'm hallucinating.  Also in the thousands of years religion has existed and these beings called gods have been worshiped there has been no objective evidence for their existence.  Not even a shred.  We live in a godless universe, that is what the evidence (and lack there of) point to.