If seeing is believing

[Evolved]

I'm talking about miracles. Divine intervention! (i.e. Samuel L. Jackson Pulp Fiction scene) I'm going off of the main topic here so what if... Something that happens, like a bus going going 60miles/hour, the brakes are cut and it can't stop, suddenly just stops as it's about to hit a pedestrian. What would you think?

I would think that something went wrong with that bus mechanically, and it would be best figured out by an investigation - take the bus apart and see what happened.  That's it.  No supernatural intervention.  Your example is interesting in that why would God save this pedestrian?  I could say, hypothetically, why doesn't God save all pedestrians that are in the path of a speeding bus?  You might say this is just one example, but many of the faithful think God is responsible for real life situations where a child is the only survivor of a plane crash (like the Yemeni plane crash last year http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/06/30/yemen.plane.crash/index.html) or that God is responsible when a bullet barely misses a child (like this one in Washington http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=20051107&slug=costcoshooting07).  What about all of the men, women, and children that horrifically died in that plane crash?  What about all of the children that have been snuffed out by stray bullets?  Where was God then?  The way that I see it, if a god did intervene in your bus scenario, then this god:

A.  Must think this one particular pedestrian is pretty special, while the others aren't, or
B.  Must not be involved in these incidents and didn't intervene (which would call into question his omnipotence among other things), or
C.  Must be a sadistic asshole who likes to perform 'miracles' so that he can be revered while sacrificing countless others.

We can probably come up with more possibilities as to why a god would let these things happen, but they wouldn't sit well with you.

Because there are things that we can't explain! I like to think of it like coincidence or fate.

'Because' is not an answer.

Do atheists think that the only reason we are on this earth is to just live....that's it?

Well, yes, but when did it become bad to just live?  I think that it's pretty cool that I, as an atheist, get to define my own purpose in life.  I also think that it's pretty special that I was born, given that the chance was highly improbable that just the right sperm met just the right egg at just the right time to make me and not someone else (and I don't want to even get into the millions of years of evolutionary improbabilities that led up to my making).  Yeah, I find that the opportunity to 'just live' is pretty damn awesome.

[Sophus]

I have faith in the belief that God exists.
And you have faith in the belief that God doesn't exist.
Is this logic right? I'm a slow thinker...

I don't see how one can have faith in a negative. Do you have faith that there are no dancing fairies on your lawn at night?

Let me put it this way to avoid any confusion. I do not believe there is no God. I disbelieve in God. Atheism is just a lack of belief. There are probably very few atheists who would to claim to know there is no God. Even Richard Dawkins is of the opinion that to completely dismiss the idea in a brush of faith is highly unscientific. But it must be proven to us first. That's skepticism. Skepticism is an antonym of faith.

Do atheists think that the only reason we are on this earth is to just live....that's it?

I'm confused. To "just" live? Life is wonderfully amazing. And if it weren't why would you want to "just live" twice, foever and ever?  

Besides what else is there to do other than live? I mean all opportunity and experiences come from life itself. If somebody can't love life, they've really got nothing to love.

[LoneMateria]

Say we don't know instead of making up an answer...

So you are just content with just saying...Well that bus should've killed them and it just stopped out of the blue. Oh well, who gives a ****?
It's more of a question about logic. If it can't be rationally explained then we just don't know, we shouldn't pin this on God.

BTW * bus thing is an example

I'm assuming the example is from Pulp Fiction and my Fiancée still gives me crap for never seeing it.  Anyway to clarify what I am saying.  Say the bus stops and the local authorities can't figure out why it did.  I would rather say, "we don't know why this happened" which is the honest answer instead of making up an answer like, "Well the Christian god stopped the bus what else can it be?"  Just because we don't understand something doesn't mean a god did it.  It just means we don't understand it.  To say anything more is stepping over a line of what we know and making things up.  You can think that your god stopped the bus all you want.  But when you assert that it is true that your god stopped the bus then you've crossed a line and have started claiming things you can't possibly know.  

Do atheists think that the only reason we are on this earth is to just live....that's it?

Has your religion really devalued our life on earth this much?

[plinkoblinko]

'Because' is not an answer.

Just take the 'because' out then. There are simply things we cannot explain. The many examples you threw out, plus many others.

What about all of the men, women, and children that horrifically died in that plane crash? What about all of the children that have been snuffed out by stray bullets? Where was God then? The way that I see it, if a god did intervene in your bus scenario, then this god:

A. Must think this one particular pedestrian is pretty special, while the others aren't, or
B. Must not be involved in these incidents and didn't intervene (which would call into question his omnipotence among other things), or
C. Must be a sadistic asshole who likes to perform 'miracles' so that he can be revered while sacrificing countless others.

We honestly don't know why some people live and some people die at all.
If God does exist, and if God created us, and if he does intervene, there's obviously a reason to it.
We can't assume that God thinks like us...right?
I assume that God is an infinite "being", so why would he think like us when it comes to life or death, or having an arm blown off, etc?

@Sophus
I'm understand about having faith in a negative.

Besides what else is there to do other than live? I mean all opportunity and experiences come from life itself. If somebody can't love life, they've really got nothing to love.

Here you acknowledge the existence of love. Can you prove to me love exists?

I'm assuming the example is from Pulp Fiction and my Fiancée still gives me crap for never seeing it.

You've got to see this movie! It's pretty good!
As for the example no, the Pulp Fiction scene deals with bullets not harming Samuel L. Jackson's character. Just go watch it.

Has your religion really devalued our life on earth this much?

Well, yes, but when did it become bad to just live?

My religion does not devalue life at all. I never said that it was bad to live.
In fact life is very important, I think that, I really hope most people do, but so is death.
All we know right now is that death is just simply death. We just die, nothing really happens except we lose our ability to live. Then we have to get into a conversation about the soul or a spiritual self that doesn't "die".
But, I'm sure you guys have heard of Pascal's wager? Not that I completely agree with this but still...

The obvious thing I'm seeing is this:
"life" kinda just showed up out of the blue.
We evolved from the tiniest of species into what we are now.
We really don't understand our existence at all (and I mean everything, life, universe, etc) and we never will because it is infinite. Like trying to solve a rubix cube that infinitely large.
We are infinite creatures living in an infinite universe and 'somehow' there is a line that crossed.
We know the 0 or a 1, a negative or a positive. We are living in a physical world that is infinite?? It just doesn't make sense.
By the way, this is great conversation, I'm just trying to understand...

[Sophus]

The obvious thing I'm seeing is this:
"life" kinda just showed up out of the blue.
We evolved from the tiniest of species into what we are now.
We really don't understand our existence at all (and I mean everything, life, universe, etc)...

I would agree that we don't fully understand our existence. Darwin has helped tremendously but there is still much unanswered. I think this is a perfect example, however, of Lone Materia's view that, when we don't know something we should conclude it is not known. Not make up explanations when we clearly admit to not knowing. If scientists continued to always think like that we never would have discovered anything.
I don't see how life would have poppoed up out of the blue when we are still working on the mystery. Science is pretty good at solving those, btw, no matter how daunting.    Love is subjective, so how would you define it? Personally I don't think love, in the traditional conception of it as complete selflessness, exists. I go by the philosopher Erich Fromm's interpretation of Love, but in this little blurb all that was really meant by it is a strong desire/affection or enjoyment by one's life. So, like I said, I think we're veering, but would still make for a good discussion elsewhere.

[plinkoblinko]

I think this is a perfect example, however, of Lone Materia's view that, when we don't know something we should conclude it is not known. Not make up explanations when we clearly admit to not knowing. If scientists continued to always think like that we never would have discovered anything.

Ahh, but I consider that, in fact, lazy thinking. Think outside of the box, why are we capable of doing it in the first place? Not knowing is just a step. Our minds are supposed to question, we strive to understand!But to what end? Religion is what has come of it. We take these things that we don't understand and substitute a answer that doesn't need "physical" proof. Kind of illogical... But why?

I don't think we do know that it's infinite. But here's a related thought I have on the matter: Matter (existence) and time cannot be without the other. I often hear God created time and lives beyond it. Doesn't that prove he doesn't exist?

I disagree, everything is infinite.
Look I'm writing paragraphs, inside the paragraphs there are sentences, we understand this...The sentences are made up of words, we understand those. Those words are then made up of letters, but what of the letters, how is it that we can just understand those? Thoughts or ideas in our brain, but they have to come from something...
Things don't just stop, we all know this. Things are made of things which are made of things, and it goes into infinity.
i.e. Life! Humans -> Muscles -> Tissue -> Cells -> DNA -> Elements -> Atoms -> Quarks (I think that's as far as we are now?) And it can then go in the opposite direction. We just keep discovering and it's never going to stop because if we find it, would our life be meaningless? Can we therefore assume that something is giving meaning to life? Or not...? Help me with this

I don't think we do know that it's infinite. But here's a related thought I have on the matter: Matter (existence) and time cannot be without the other. I often hear God created time and lives beyond it. Doesn't that prove he doesn't exist?

Good idea, but does matter prove existence?

Pascal's Wager doesn't consider all of the different faiths.

That doesn't matter, all faiths have truth. I see what you mean though.

Haha, I won't press the love subject here.

So, basically I'm getting this:
We are beings, living (we don't know how), existing (we don't know why), and trying to discover life as we know it.
And the only absolute question is that we want proof that God exists? Why?

[Sophus]

So, basically I'm getting this:
We are beings, living (we don't know how), existing (we don't know why), and trying to discover life as we know it.
And the only absolute question is that we want proof that God exists? Why?

Some people want proof before they dedicate their whole life to something. Plus, it's about more than a lack of evidence in favor of the God hypothesis. I'd say there's much that reasons it's highly improbable.

Ahh, but I consider that, in fact, lazy thinking.

I disagree. It's just being honest. Nothing wrong with showing creative thinking. I myself often ponder the subject of the origin of life and try to reason out what is most likely. I simply don't claim to know. But if history is a guide, there will be a natural answer for it. The greatest mysteries keep falling victim to scientific inquiry.
What if I were to tell you that I believe some of the miracles in the Bible really did happen? Here's the catch: there's a scientific explanation behind them. Remember when Moses turned a Nile red with blood? Well, if you push the dating back by about five hundred years (which isn't bad considering Moses probably wasn't the one who actually wrote about himself) scientists think a real event may have occurred that would cause a river to turn to red, killing the fish - Pfiesteria. In more recent time, a river has been known to turn red. The red pigment from the algea (red tide) along with the blood of dead fish may well have been the inspiration for the Biblical story. They also theorize that "the mass death of fish would have freed the spawn of frogs from their natural predators". (*John S. Marr, & Curtis Malloy)Their theories for explaining the plagues of Egypt continue...

I'm not so desperate for an explanation that I'll accept the first creative answer. That's not intellectual laziness, that's just making sure you really know what you know. Am I making sense?

Life! Humans -> Muscles -> Tissue -> Cells -> DNA -> Elements -> Atoms -> Quarks (I think that's as far as we are now?) And it can then go in the opposite direction. We just keep discovering and it's never going to stop because if we find it, would our life be meaningless? Can we therefore assume that something is giving meaning to life? Or not...? Help me with this

Ah, I thought you were referring to the Universe, as in time. Atoms have their limitations as well. Just because we're still discovering doesn't mean its infinite either. It's kind of hastily jumping to conclusion, IMHO. On physics, Gary Zukav had said that it is no longer possible to answer what we a re manifestation of. But he wasn't a physicist. Just a New Ager trying to make a gap fit his faith.

Good idea, but does matter prove existence?

They are essentially the same, are they not? Einstein had noted that time was an illusion as it was simply the product of existence itself. Without matter (something to exist) nothing can exist.

 Good productive discussion thus far.  

[Ellainix]

Ha, this is interesting I like this.

Here lies the problem.
We all know that In order to have a belief in something we have to acknowledge its existence.
There is no proof that God exists/doesn't exist.

So basically we cannot "believe in God" because we cannot prove he exists/doesn't exist.
Faith is a belief is something that is not based on proof though... so...

This is where I step in. You can't prove that God does or does not exist. You can't prove that heaven does or does not exist. You also can't prove that Wonderland does not exist.

There are 1000s of groups that make a huge variety of claims about a spiritual world and it's inhabitants. Even members of the same group disagree on something. All of them (including Christianity) are equally unsupported by evidence or reason.

What does this lead me to conclude? Religions appear to be fine-tuned to adapt and survive in a world where there is no God, spiritual realms, or spiritual beings of any kind.

[LoneMateria]

Do atheists think that the only reason we are on this earth is to just live....that's it?

Has your religion really devalued our life on earth this much?

My religion does not devalue life at all. I never said that it was bad to live.
In fact life is very important, I think that, I really hope most people do, but so is death.

The reason I asked is because you seemed to imply here that life without your god isn't special.  To which I couldn't disagree more.  Religion teaches you that this life isn't that important because when you die you will have a life that is incredibly better then this one.  As an atheist I don't believe in an afterlife.  Which makes this life infinitely more worth living then an afterlife that may or may not exist.  It makes life infinitely more valuable.

Ahh, but I consider that, in fact, lazy thinking. Think outside of the box, why are we capable of doing it in the first place? Not knowing is just a step. Our minds are supposed to question, we strive to understand!But to what end? Religion is what has come of it. We take these things that we don't understand and substitute a answer that doesn't need "physical" proof. Kind of illogical... But why?

So you are saying that religion is just asserting they know something that no one currently knows(I agree).  I find making up an easy answer lazy thinking.  It's much easier to just say something did it, rather then working hard to understand the processes involved in what is happening.  When you assert made up answers to problems you stop the process of learning.  To me that is willful ignorance.  No matter how creative you think you are in making up an answer you are still making stuff up, and there is no truth value in what you say.  If you ask me why the sky is blue and I tell you it's because the pink unicorn farted the sky and his farts are blue, no matter how creative this answer is does that make me any more correct?  No matter how much I assert this is absolutely true does that make me correct?  Even if I actually believed this does that make my answer correct?  This is what it sounds like to us when you say your god did something when we don't currently have an explanation.  It sounds like you took the easy explanation instead of researching and looking for an answer.  If you do research and can't figure out why the sky is blue ... how does that justify the belief that the pink unicorn farted the sky blue?  It doesn't.  Same with assigning something to your god when you can't explain it.  Just because you claim a god did it does not make it true ... and even if we don't know why something happened how, exactly, does it lend credibility to a god doing it?

I disagree, everything is infinite.

Thats a nice assertion do you have any evidence to back this up?

... but what of the letters, how is it that we can just understand those?

Do you not recall preschool and kindergarten?

Help me with this

Sure.  What makes you think the cycle is infinite, and what makes you think a god stops the cycle of infinite regress?  We know that everything starts simple and then gets complex over time.  A being able to create the universe would have to be complex by definition.  So where does your god come from and why does he stop the cycle of infinite regress?  And how is it more honest to say a god does that instead of, "I don't know"?

That doesn't matter, all faiths have truth. I see what you mean though.

Just a note to start with.  Pascal's Wager makes the mistake that belief is something that you can choose.  I can't choose to believe in a god anymore then you can choose to believe in Santa Clause.  

Now why aren't all faiths saying the same thing if they all are true (or have truths in them)?  It does matter that Pascal's Wager doesn't cover all religions.  Religions have conflicting views on what god is true and what it wants and what it does.  If you are wrong and a different religion is right then what?   The god of the bible is a jealous prick who will commit genocide if people worship a different god (read the Old Testament if you don't believe me).  There are other gods who get equally jealous and petty over it.  So if you worship Yahweh (the god of the bible) and you are wrong but say Wotan is right (who was a bitter rival of Yahweh) you would be better off not worshiping Yahweh.  Also when you account for all the religions someone has to be wrong.  In fact if Christians are correct all of the tens (possibly hundreds) of thousands of religions that ever existed have to be wrong.  But you know what?  No religion has to be right, but many have to be wrong.  Think about that next time you read Pascal's Cowardly Wager of trying to fake belief in light of possible punishment.

[Sophus]

Just a note to start with. Pascal's Wager makes the mistake that belief is something that you can choose. I can't choose to believe in a god anymore then you can choose to believe in Santa Clause.

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that. I guess denialism is subject to one's own volition, but not genuine belief.

[LoneMateria]

Just a note to start with. Pascal's Wager makes the mistake that belief is something that you can choose. I can't choose to believe in a god anymore then you can choose to believe in Santa Clause.

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that. I guess denialism is subject to one's own volition, but not genuine belief.

[dionysiou]

hmmm for me honestly, there are only personal accounts, which i believe were from God which keep me believing in God. I think for the most part people hold onto their beliefs for hope and comfort and dont have any substantial proof for themselves.

ill share one, woke up one day and decided i wanted to "search for God", to find out once and for all if there was one. Spent months dedicating hours of MY time to reading the bible, prayer and talking to God, i never heard any audible voice talk back either.

I told God during the day that i was going to go down to the forest and that i wanted Him to accompany me. I went down to the forest as soon as i had finished helping my dad with the cupboard we were making. I brought my p.e h/w and my bible and a drink bottle. While i was down there i was praying to God, asking that the Holy Spirit would be strengthened in me. I said " I know your real and i dont doubt you but i want to get closer to you, if you'll let me". After that i started humming and whistling and i was thinking in my head, wouldnt it be awesome if a bird whistled back! I thought if God willed it then the Holy Spirit would give the birds understanding. Although i told God if nothing happened i wouldnt lose faith. Time passed and it was time for me to head home, sun was goin down. i stood up and before id taken 3 steps a wild kookaburra flew past my head. i thought to myself "Wow that was close, this bird must be comfortable around me". then it flew past me again and landed on a nearby fence. I looked at the bird which looked straight back at me and i knew that God was granting this bird peace with me and i thanked Him for it. i then dropped to my knees and said " God if this is from you, then grant this bird understanding". I then stood up, looked at the kookaburra,  gestured my hand and said "come over here". The kookaburra immediately flew over to me and landed at my feet, it was looking straight up at me. I was amazed but also a little afraid. i then remembered how peter had doubted Gods power and decided i would not do the same. I sat down slowly, put out my hand and the kookaburra came right up to me and nibbled on my hand. i knew that the kookaburra wouldnt hurt me because God had given it peace with me. I sat for a while playing with the wild kookaburra, and the rest of its family flew over and watched from a nearby tree. I knew that we were now friends, thanks to the power of the Holy Spirit. I was also crying all the while.  It eventually flew back over to the fence and i noticed more animals had come out of the forest and were at peace. We all looked out into the valley as the sun went down. i decided it was time to head home, so i got up and said goodbye.

It was one of the best days of my life, and i owe it all to God.  

"If you draw near to God, He draws near to you".

[MikeTheInfidel]

If personal experiences are somehow good justification for believing, why are atheists told that they're irrational for DISbelieving because of their personal experiences? Regardless of the fact that we don't all have negative experiences with religion...

[dionysiou]

Truth is you know what youve done and havent done. You know wether or not you wholeheartedly gave God a chance to prove Himself in your life. You cant expect experiences to fall into your lap. You cant expect God to reveal Himself to you without you making sacrifices for Him.

[Sophus]

To dionysiou,

I was a Christian in my youth. The more I pondered it the more I began to think that all of my personal experiences were really the construction of my mind. I don't mean what I'm about to say offensively at all, and I hope you don't take it that way. But I would rephrase "If you draw near to God, He draws near to you" as "there's no clear point between pretending to believe in something and really believing in it." The more you attempt to know an imaginary friend the more you'll personify him. Not to mention you're presuming their existence, even though you're doubting it. The search is anything my mind can find to give me reason to believe in what is now constantly on my mind; what I wish I could be certain of. By talking to this character and fantasizing of what he's like I develop an attachment to him. The mind's a powerful tool. If you delve into psychology I think you'll see just how easy it is for the mind to trick itself. There has been research proving humans have a strong tendency to believe what they want to. If you search for truth with feelings, you'll likely make your conclusion based on feelings, not reason.

Once, as a child, I saw a blinking red light in the sky on Christmas Eve. Needless to say it was an airplane but I said, "Look it's Rudolph!"And was eager to get home so Santa wouldn't pass us by for not being in bed. Coincidences:

We happen to be out that night
The light on the aircraft was red, not white or another color
A plane passed over where we were at on December 24th at the exact time we were walking to the car
I noticed the light
I was raised to believe in Santa and Rudolph

Coincidences do happen.

lol it happens. I know I didn't mention everything about Pascal's Wager either because we just don't have enough room to do it and stay on topic. We could go into detail about the question begging present or the moral implications of belief over actions. But you did a great job I just rehashed it with other things I could think of at the time without turning it into a 5 page response like what i'm famous for

Ha ha... yes, it is quite flawed. Don't know if I completely agree with that website's information on it though. Even though Pascal was trying to convince readers we should "believe in God without hesitation" he did acknowledge there options of a Finite gain and Finite loss, didn't he?