Asperger's and Autism

[Kylyssa]

I'm writing a little bit about being autistic now, in a memoir and I just found myself describing neurotypical people as "somewhat like Clever Hans plus a vocabulary of several thousand words."  Of course I first explained a little about Clever Hans, how the horse could tell what his trainer wanted or which math answer was correct by reading his body language, his expression, and his tone of voice - all so skillfully that his trainer didn't realize the horse was doing it.

In my experience, "normal" people just barely listen to what is being said.  They appear to focus on and react to the tone of voice, facial expressions, and body language far more than they do to words.  I first concluded this when I went to the doctor with a couple of broken bones (thumb and wrist).  I said that I thought it was broken because I fell on it very hard on the ice, it hurt a lot, there were unfamiliar painful lumps, and because the hand made crunchy, grindy noises when moved which coincided with a lot of pain and that the hand and wrist had not previously made such noises.  I had had broken bones before and the sensation was similar.  All of these things suggested to me that it was broken. I'm positive that if someone related those points to me, I would assume that they at least actually thought they had a broken bone.  However, he just manipulated the hand in an agonizing way, said that it couldn't be broken, and had the assistant get me an ace bandage.  I asked for some kind of painkiller but was told to take some ibuprofen.  

I ended up going to the hospital when the hand swelled up and turned odd colors.  An x-ray showed it was broken in two places, the wrist and the thumb.  Later, I found out that my original doctor had thought I was exhibiting drug-seeking behavior and lying about my injury because I didn't display the proper reactions.  I guess I was supposed to have made some non-word vocalizations in response to the pain and my speech should have sounded like I was in pain.  To me, it made it clear that my words were almost meaningless to him.  I found it distressing that a doctor would be so reliant on body language that he would be unable to properly interpret the English language, especially when I had so clearly presented my concerns.  

This led me to do more people watching and to examine how people seem to interpret what other people say.  I had known for a long time that I must make an attempt at imitating normal body language and facial expressions but I had never really examined or expected how much more important those things are to neurotypicals than words are.    

I wonder if this is why some "normals" can't or won't communicate with the written word?  Perhaps they can't understand enough of the language without the animal signals?

[Sophus]

This led me to do more people watching and to examine how people seem to interpret what other people say.  I had known for a long time that I must make an attempt at imitating normal body language and facial expressions but I had never really examined or expected how much more important those things are to neurotypicals than words are.    

I wonder if this is why some "normals" can't or won't communicate with the written word?  Perhaps they can't understand enough of the language without the animal signals?

Maybe so. I much prefer the written word over verbal communication for several reasons. One being I can plan out everything I'm going to say and don't make a mess of things (as I usually do). Everyone else I know prefers to "chat". Especially on those pesky telephones.    Writing and wording things eloquently may be too boring and studious a task for folks.

I've had similar instances such as yours, but no where near as severe. But likewise, ever since I've been rather good at taking mental not to consistently fake or exaggerate emotions like others in public. It comes naturally with loved ones or friends, but some reason I'm in a different mode when around strangers or mere acquaintances.

[Kylyssa]

I do well enough making the expected faces and voice tones in more-or-less normal circumstances, I just can't seem to do it if I am suffering a major distraction.  Also, I don't have the volume of observations of what sounds, tones of voice and facial expressions are correct for when one is in pain that I have for normal, everyday occurrences.  I have seen others in pain but I have always been too distracted by providing aid to make note of the way they sounded and behaved.

[Kidnapkid]

I suppose you've all read about mercury in childhood vaccinations leading to higher cases of autism. I originally started hearing about Mercury through Billy Corgan's music, and I wondered why he seemed to have such an obsession with Mercury, the word appears several times in most of his albums. When I heard his little brother Jesse is autistic I thought I had it figured out. Come to find out recently that Billy himself suffered from both Mercury and Lead poisoning, and probably has Aspergers himself. Anyway, cos of Billy I've had my ear out about mercury for a long time and a few years ago I saw some weird late night info-science-show on late night NJN (I think.) It was all about this theory about childhood vaccines and autism. I goggled autism and mercury together and the first hit was excellent so I'm posting it. This is both great information for people with aspergers and autism as well as potential parents and I'll repost this link in parenting too.

http://www.naturalnews.com/011764.html

[Kidnapkid]

http://www.naturalnews.com/011764.html

The above webpage is very informative to anyone who might have kids ever. It's about how mercury in childhood vaccines can cause autism and aspergers. Which is basically just another way of saying "Someone with mercury poisoning." This information is still sort of hidden, and I strongly advise you to read the above material. And please ask your doctor for mercury/thimerosal free vaccines for yourselves and your children, and please tell your brothers and sisters so you can help protect your nieces and nephews. Oh, and your neighbors, coworkers, and friends.

Yours K. Kid

[AlP]

Hi K Kid. I don't think I've met yout. Hi

From the FDA:
http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccin ... 096228.htm

[Whitney]

Autism/aspergers is not a word for mercury poisoning nor is there any valid reason to link them to vaccines.

It's just a bunch of hype based on nothing but vague assumptions because parents of autistic children had to find someone to blame.

[pckizer]

I goggled autism and mercury together and the first hit was excellent so I'm posting it. This is both great information for people with aspergers and autism as well as potential parents and I'll repost this link in parenting too.

If I'm reading that article correctly, I can only say that "great information" should more rightly be written as "great misinformation" or "great scaremongering".

The article keeps mentioning 1999 and goes to some lengths to try and intimate that products produced before that date were still being distributed up to 3 years later.  What it omits is that even if providing of mercury-preserved vaccines was only finally stopped in 2001, that explains nothing since all infant vaccines have been mercury/thimerisol-free since then and yet the rate of incidence continues to rise.  That variable was changed and the outcome did not.  Add to that the fact that the only study to provide any kind of link has been definitively shown to have been fraudulent, there is not a single bit of data showing any kind of link.

The mercury/thimerisol situation is being taken extremely religiously by those that are proponents of the claim; unfortunately to the detriment of both the children and society as a whole due to the destruction of "herd immunity" that can be seen with a sufficient number of vaccinated individualt.

[Kylyssa]

The "studies" linking autism to vaccines have been discredited.  The major one just recently was discredited when it was uncovered that the sampling used was bad - if I recall correctly, the study was done on just twelve children whose parents suspected that vaccination had caused their children's problems.  Which just proves that autistic children that have been vaccinated still have autism.

My father has autism.  He's 77 years old and got no vaccines until he got into the Army.  I'm pretty sure that those vaccinations did not retroactively give him autism as a child.  One of his cousins was severely autistic.  I am autistic. So I'm suspecting a genetic component here.    

People probably get more mercury from eating fish than from vaccines.  

Because of the scaremongering about vaccines causing autism, there have been outbreaks of measles.  The decision to not vaccinate your child not only affects your child, it affects children too young to get vaccinated that your child infects.  If a person chooses to have their children not vaccinated, I think that they should be required to homeschool and avoid day cares and other activities involving exposure to other children.

[Whitney]

I moved kid's other topic claiming a autism/vaccine link into this thread because I didn't feel that a topic proclaiming false information was appropriate for the parenting section for fear that some naive parent would choose not to vaccinate their child.

[pckizer]

I moved kid's other topic claiming a autism/vaccine link into this thread because I didn't feel that a topic proclaiming false information was appropriate for the parenting section for fear that some naive parent would choose not to vaccinate their child.

Good plan, I had tried to answer as rapidly as I could on that topic since I hate to see bogus claims sitting out there unaddressed with regards to reality.  It was very much in the "someone is wrong on the internet" category for me:

[pinkocommie]

I moved kid's other topic claiming a autism/vaccine link into this thread because I didn't feel that a topic proclaiming false information was appropriate for the parenting section for fear that some naive parent would choose not to vaccinate their child.

Great idea.  I know that people who perpetuate this myth are doing so out of concern, but it's a really terrible practice to skip vaccinations for your kid.

[Sophus]

Why Autism is the Key to the Mind and Why Philosopher's Should Take Note

Or should I have posted this under Philosophy?  

[Squid]

The link to austism and any vaccines are less about science and more about needing something to blame.  There are two big papers in the austism-vaccinations world - one targeting the MMR vaccine.  This was a paper published by a guy named Wakefield and some colleagues.  Well, it later turned out he had doctored some of his numbers and also had a deal with a pharmaceutical company for a competing "safer" vaccine.  The paper was retracted by the journal and all the authors except Wakefield.  However due to the paper and the panic it caused, the U.K. stopped using that particular vaccine in the late 90's. Guess what?  Austim rates did NOT decrease but actually increased - however, as other papers have pointed out this is most likely not an increase in actual incidence but a reflection of technological and methodological advancements as well as more people having access to medical professionals and more common knowledge about such disorders.

The link between thimerosal and austism is not there either.  One paper that is constantly cited appeared in a non-reviewed journal (although they have since changed their policies of late I believe) called Medical Hypotheses.  However, other reviews of the evidence have not found any link between the use of vaccines with thimerosal in them and autism in children.  Thimerosal has been removed from infant vaccines for years now due to pressure from advocate groups and impressionable and decidedly NOT scientific members of congress even in the light of a extensive CDC study which concluded there was NO evidence for a link.  This is why I hate sleek looking internet sites which are not out to provide solid, scientific information but to push an agenda (such as a fight against big Pharma), sell a product (Dr. SoandSo's book) or both. Here's some scientific references in peer-reviewed journals to take a gander at:

Hviid, A. et al. (2003). Association Between Thimerosal-Containing Vaccine and Autism.  Journal of the American Medical Association, 290, 1763-1766.

"The results do not support a causal relationship between childhood vaccination with thimerosal-containing vaccines and development of autistic-spectrum disorders."

Nelson, K. & Bauman, M. (2003). Thimerosal and austism?  Pediatrics, 111, 674-679.

"On the basis of current evidence, we consider it improbable  that thimerosal and autism are linked."

A study in 2008 by a couple of researchers claims that (albeit they acknowledge the possible moderation of confounds upon their results)thimerosal containing vaccines were linked with the appearence of some developmental disorders in speech and thinking as well as autism and personality disorders (quite a wide array of stuff there).  The article was published in the International Journal of Toxicity (Grier & Grier (2008).  Neurodevelopmental Disorders Following Thimerosal-Containing Childhood Immunizations: A Follow-Up Analysis.  International Journal of Toxicity 23(6), 369 - 376).  HOWEVER, they performed a study on data using the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) - that is a kid gets a vaccine and then something goes wrong and it's reported.  Since thimerosal was a widely utilized preservative in vaccines it would make sense that it would pop up in the system many times.  Their angle was to show that the number of developmental disorders were at a significant rate compared to the use of a thimerosal-free vaccine verson - bottom line: bad design, piss poor planning and control of confounding factors.

However, they seem to ignore studies such as the one from a Danish population which discontinued use of thimerosal vaccines:

Madsen, K et al. (2003). Thimerosal and the Occurrence of Autism: Negative Ecological Evidence From Danish Population-Based Data.  Pediatrics, 112, 604-606.

"The discontinuation of thimerosal-containing vaccines in Denmark in 1992 was followed by an increase in the incidence of autism. Our ecological data do not support a correlation between thimerosal-containing vaccines and  the incidence of autism."

So if thimerosal was the culprit, why did Denmark see and INCREASE in austim?  Same situation with the U.K. and the discontinuation of the MMR vaccine.

Even large meta-analyses found no conclusion (looking at the published literature from 1966 to 2004):

Parker, D. et al. (2004). Thimerosal-Containing Vaccines and  Autistic Spectrum Disorder: A Critical Review of Published Original Data.  Pediatrics, 114, 793-804.:

"Studies do not demonstrate a link between thimerosal-containing vaccines and ASD, and the pharmacokinetics of ethylmercury make such an association less likely. Epidemiologic studies that support a link demonstrated significant design flaws that invalidate their conclusions. Evidence does not support a change in the standard of practice with regard to administration of thimerosal-containing vaccines in areas of the world where they are used."

A large inquiry into the vaccine-autism scare by the Immunization Safety Review Committee [(2004) Immunization Safety Review: Vaccines and Autism.  Washington, D.C.: National Academies Press] found no link and the inquiry was more in depth and larger than any other published papers on the subject:

"The committee concludes that the body of epidemiological evidence favors rejection of a causal relationship between the MMR vaccine and autism. The committee also concludes that the body of epidemiological evidence favors rejection of a causal relationship between thimerosal-containing vaccines and autism."

The Natural News website is ran by Truth Publishing International, a publisher of a whole pile of pseudo-scientific, alternative medicine junk and supported by natural medicine activists who have more of a problem with coporate pharmaceutical companies than they do finding actual medical therapies for diseases and disorders.

There's some of the evidence, you make the call.  If you're a parent - they're your children you make that call on the vaccine thing.  But I would encourage all parents to make an informed decision based upon current scientific knowledge and not the agenda of a publishing company's website or the like.

[Kylyssa]

Excellent post, Squid!

I wonder if people feel the need to blame their childrens' autism on an outside force because a genetic or developmental cause would make them feel guilty?  

I get about a comment a week or a contact via PM on my Aspergers page telling me about this or that "cure" or blaming vaccinations for my autism.  On other pages, I leave contrary posts up in the comments (so long as there's no profanity included to mess up my child-safe rating) but on my Aspergers page, I remove comments with misinformation links and those that discuss vaccination as if it were a cause of autism.  Some people have gotten quite angry when I removed their comments and have accused me of not having an open mind about the causes of autism.  Some have gone so far as to tell me that my "mental retardation" due to autism prevents me from considering vaccines as a cause of autism.