understanding the religious mind

[wullie1320]

Hi,

I am looking for views on the religious mind, from a perspective that when a person of faith reads the bible they fail to see the inconsistencies. Even when debating or discussing, in my experience, you cannot question religious belief even when you state the obvious. How do you open the mind of a religious person to make them at least understand or at least to question their logic?

[elliebean]

You can't make them understand it or question it. They've typically used the compartmentational capabilities of their mind to switch off the circuits to logic and critical thinking where it concerns those kinds of beliefs. I used to be one of those believers, I know how it works, and that it takes a great deal of intellect to finally break through that, but I had to do it on my own. That is not to say one shouldn't try - your arguments can stick with a thinking person for a long time, even if they reject them at the time. Those kinds of arguments became very useful to me, once I began questioning. But it was ultimately my own experiences and my own thoughts on them that really initiated the questioning.

As for specific biblical inconsistencies, I was very good at coming up with justifications and explanations for them, when those offered by my pastor or teachers didn't suffice. It was rather like an art form for me, coming up with alternative, 'possible' scenarios, reading 'between the lines' to bypass the contradiction. It was all really silly, of course, playing the "what if" game.

That's one reason I get so frustrated by it now - I know there just isn't any end to it and I can tell when a person is never going to stop finding new angles, or will say anything just to keep talking. This is a tactic for maintaining the illusion that there is still an open discussion or that there are still unresolved questions. It's fruitless to continue such a conversation. In a "debate" such as that, you're at a distinct disadvantage if you limit yourself to saying only things that make sense and move things forward, rather than spinning wheels. Eventually, you run out of things to say back, while they get to go on blithely spouting nonsense and believing they've won the argument, though in reality you've simply grown sick of the repetition and abandoned them as a lost cause.

[Typist]

How do you open the mind of a religious person to make them at least understand or at least to question their logic?

How do you open the mind of any person to make them at least understand or at least to question their logic?

I'm a programmer, you might say a serious logic nerd.   I've gone through my whole life expecting life and people to be logical, and even after 58 years, am still surprised when it doesn't work that way.   Duh...

What I'm learning, quite slowly, is that it isn't logical to expect people to be fully logical, and that especially includes people like me, (and maybe you) who are convinced they are very logical.

[wullie1320]

Elliebean, I think you are right in what you say about "maintaining the illusion ". I think it's good that you questioned religion to give yourself a better outlook on life. I have know doubt you now value life more than you did before. I have had conversations with my friend who is very religious. She says god is real, and I ask how? where is the evidence?, she will reply. "becuase he is real", I would say "how is he real?", "because I have felt him". I said "really" she replied "you'll understand once you feel him" So you are right, it's endless answers of denial coupled with illogical reasoning. This frustrates me and I just want to make them all better.

[Dagda]

Elliebean, I think you are right in what you say about "maintaining the illusion ". I think it's good that you questioned religion to give yourself a better outlook on life. I have know doubt you now value life more than you did before. I have had conversations with my friend who is very religious. She says god is real, and I ask how? where is the evidence?, she will reply. "becuase he is real", I would say "how is he real?", "because I have felt him". I said "really" she replied "you'll understand once you feel him" So you are right, it's endless answers of denial coupled with illogical reasoning. This frustrates me and I just want to make them all better.

Yes if only we could cure all those pesky believers. Maybe we could start clinics where we show all those stupid people the error of their ways.

[elliebean]

Yes if only we could cure all those pesky believers. Maybe we could start clinics where we show all those stupid people the error of their ways.

 Yes, and we would call it "school".

Now don't start taking things all personal. No one's threatening to take your religious freedom away or saying that all theists are stupid, so just calm down. We're not talking about forced indoctrination camps - if anything, it's the fact that such things already exist that we find objectionable - this is about people giving people the keys to their own prisons, equipping them to "cure" their own reliance on superstition, using sound, rational, critical thinking.

[Typist]

- this is about people giving people the keys to their own prisons,

You see, this is the very same thing that many of the best religious thinkers wish to accomplish.  In some cases they have thought about this more deeply, and over a far longer period, than the vast majority of us.   And this is one of the reasons that religion continues generation after generation after generation, for thousands of years.

The prison we all inhabit, is the prison of "me".  

It is the human condition to experience the universe as "me and everything else".   At it's heart, this is a quite lonely experience, which we typically wallpaper over with lots of thought, talk and busyness etc.  

It's why we are all here on this forum, filling the hours with chit chat.  Because to sit quietly in a chair and do nothing, would be to face the aloneness.    

Try it.  Don't take my word.  Do the experiment.

Go to a nice spot in nature.   Get there early in the morning.  Find a nice spot.  And sit there all day, until sunset, doing nothing.   If you can.  See how long you can hack it.  

The resistance you will find soon emerging is the very normal human instinct to run from our aloneness, to fill the prison cell with something, anything.

When somebody says, "Love your neighbor as yourself" they are trying to offer us the keys to our prison cell.

Sadly, the best parts of this often get buried under a mountain of phoney baloney power tripping etc, and that's where I see your point.

[elliebean]

That isn't the prison I was talking about, but I see your point also. I just don't think one needs to believe in gods or magical things to love your neighbor, or to escape from the "prison of me" or anything else.  

In fact, I think letting go of one's god-belief can be one more step in achieving just that.

[Typist]

That isn't the prison I was talking about, but I see your point also. I just don't think one needs to believe in gods or magical things to love your neighbor, or to escape from the "prison of me" or anything else.  :-)  

In fact, I think letting go of one's god-belief can be one more step in achieving just that.

It can, agreed.   For you.

[wullie1320]

I would agree to the extent that religion can indeed imprison the mind, but that's only due to outside factors and acceptance without questioning. What if the bible had not been written?

thought, And when we do that, we leave the land of theism and atheism behind altogether.    

Unless we stumble in to a forum full of happy atheists, and then that plan goes out the window.    

@ Typist, we all need thoughts to keep the brain functioning, if you don’t have thought we would not have the function to rationalise and think things through. A lot like the religious today. But I think I get your point. Correct me if I’m wrong, are you saying just forget about the whole issue of theist and atheist and you can go one step further by stepping outside the box? Even if you do this you still need to think about it? but to leave the land of theism and atheism behind altogether, religion must cease to exsist, and when that happens (i live in hope) the athiest would not exsist. you would then leave the land of theism and atheism behind altogether.  

On another point, I’m not sure you can even go one step further than atheist, if so what would that be called, in fact I don’t even like the word atheist myself.

[Typist]

Hi Wullie,

@ Typist, we all need thoughts to keep the brain functioning, if you don’t have thought we would not have the function to rationalise and think things through.

I agree that thought is necessary for our survival, and for completing daily life tasks etc.   But it is obviously not necessary that we think every minute of our lives.  

The purpose of both religion and science is to try to understand reality.   One way to approach that is to create theories and then debate them, ie. thought.   Another way is to stop thinking and talking, and quietly observe reality.  

The biggest obstacle to clear objective observation is thought, the chronic pattern of chatter running through our minds.   You know, while I'm thinking about what I'm going to say next, I'm not really listening to what you are saying.  

Correct me if I’m wrong, are you saying just forget about the whole issue of theist and atheist and you can go one step further by stepping outside the box?

Well, as you can see, I have no objection to thinking about theism and atheism.
Both are made of thought, and that is a "box" of sorts.   I'm just saying there are other options to explore too.  

As example, a bird scientist might go to a conference and discuss and debate many theories about birds, ie. thought, abstractions.   That same scientist might go out in to the field, and quietly observe real birds in real life, without any thoughts, without any pre-conceived ideas or theories to defend, so that they can observe very clearly and objectively, ie. non-thought.

Even if you do this you still need to think about it? but to leave the land of theism and atheism behind altogether, religion must cease to exsist, and when that happens (i live in hope) the athiest would not exsist. you would then leave the land of theism and atheism behind altogether.  

In the moments when we aren't thinking, but just observing reality quietly and objectively, there is no theism, no atheism.   As soon as we return to our thoughts and theories, theism and atheism reappear.

Imho...

[buttercupbaby]

I never understood how screwed up my thinking was when I was a believer until I read 1984.   To believe in logic and illogic concurrently is pretty close to a mental illnes, the way I see it now.

[Dries]

Hi,

I am looking for views on the religious mind, from a perspective that when a person of faith reads the bible they fail to see the inconsistencies. Even when debating or discussing, in my experience, you cannot question religious belief even when you state the obvious. How do you open the mind of a religious person to make them at least understand or at least to question their logic?

I think that the best would be to use a can opener.

[Adrian Simmons]

I never understood how screwed up my thinking was when I was a believer until I read 1984.   To believe in logic and illogic concurrently is pretty close to a mental illnes, the way I see it now.

That's not fair. My mother and grandmother are the best people I know, and they really have their heads screwed on, and they're both very religious. It's not a mental illness to have beliefs, it's just different, everyone has their own take. I don't see what good it does to place oneself bove others just because they are different. Some of things my mother says I find crazy (in a funny way) but I don't see any need to belittle her. We all have religious friends I presume, they can't all be mentally ill.

[elliebean]

No, but some of them are pretty close.

I never understood how screwed up my thinking was when I was a believer until I read 1984. To believe in logic and illogic concurrently is pretty close to a mental illnes, the way I see it now.

Your can't-we-all-get-alongisms are starting to sound a little preachy to me.