understanding the religious mind

[Adrian Simmons]

No, but some of them are pretty close.

I never understood how screwed up my thinking was when I was a believer until I read 1984. To believe in logic and illogic concurrently is pretty close to a mental illnes, the way I see it now.

Your can't-we-all-get-alongisms are starting to sound a little preachy to me.

Perhaps, but there's nothing wrong with it. Why not get along?

[elliebean]

Oh, I have nothing against getting along; I'm actually a very easy person to get along with and give people more benefit of the doubt than most. It's just that to me it seems that to insist on suggesting that christians (in this case) are somehow more moral, more friendly, more humble, and more tolerant people is biased. It could be that I'm simply biased to the opposite position, but my past and present experiences with and observations of people and events make it very hard to believe that to be the case.

[LoneMateria]

Here maybe this will help settle your argument.  This was posted in another section of the forum btw.

http://i.imgur.com/kpb5A.png

[wullie1320]

I think it is a mental illness, and we all must find a cure, logic and reason does not seam to wrok...

What will?  

[Adrian Simmons]

I'm not suggesting that christians are more moral than atheists, but christianity does have a moral code, and atheism doesn't. My point being that with a moral code, you're more likely to be a moral person, than without one. And let's turn that on its head. If christianity was nothing more than a tradition and there were no commandments, and atheism had a moral code, I would then say that an atheist is a bit more likely to be moral than a christian. I hope no one misreads what I've just said, because it's really quite straightforward. Atheism lacks a moral code, and that is what creates somewhat of a disadvantage in terms of what I'm talking about. The fact that atheism is about no God is neither here nor there, because you can quite easily have a moral code without God. And I'm not saying that atheism should have a moral code.

[G-Roll]

I'm not suggesting that christians are more moral than atheists, but christianity does have a moral code, and atheism doesn't. My point being that with a moral code, you're more likely to be a moral person, than without one. And let's turn that on its head. If christianity was nothing more than a tradition and there were no commandments, and atheism had a moral code, I would then say that an atheist is a bit more likely to be moral than a christian. I hope no one misreads what I've just said, because it's really quite straightforward. Atheism lacks a moral code, and that is what creates somewhat of a disadvantage in terms of what I'm talking about. The fact that atheism is about no God is neither here nor there, because you can quite easily have a moral code without God. And I'm not saying that atheism should have a moral code.

Lol what does not believing in god have to do with moral codes?  

so religion is the only source of moral code? im curious as to your view of morality, but that is a long drawn out and possibly over done subject.

[Adrian Simmons]

I'm not suggesting that christians are more moral than atheists, but christianity does have a moral code, and atheism doesn't. My point being that with a moral code, you're more likely to be a moral person, than without one. And let's turn that on its head. If christianity was nothing more than a tradition and there were no commandments, and atheism had a moral code, I would then say that an atheist is a bit more likely to be moral than a christian. I hope no one misreads what I've just said, because it's really quite straightforward. Atheism lacks a moral code, and that is what creates somewhat of a disadvantage in terms of what I'm talking about. The fact that atheism is about no God is neither here nor there, because you can quite easily have a moral code without God. And I'm not saying that atheism should have a moral code.

Lol what does not believing in god have to do with moral codes?  

so religion is the only source of moral code? im curious as to your view of morality, but that is a long drawn out and possibly over done subject.

That's right, not believing in God has nothing to do with moral codes, in itself. It's up to each person to have one or not. That's what I'm saying. Of course religion isn't the only source of moral codes, it's one of many.

[G-Roll]

My point being that with a moral code, you're more likely to be a moral person, than without one.

is the law of the land a moral code? something that forms a social contract to treat people at least decently?
for example the law states do not steal, dont kill people, dont have sex with minors, treat animals with respect, no breaking and entering... ect.
so would a lawful person be as moral as a religous person? or does everyone have a "moral code" to follow whether they want to or not?

[Adrian Simmons]

My point being that with a moral code, you're more likely to be a moral person, than without one.

is the law of the land a moral code? something that forms a social contract to treat people at least decently?
for example the law states do not steal, dont kill people, dont have sex with minors, treat animals with respect, no breaking and entering... ect.
so would a lawful person be as moral as a religous person? or does everyone have a "moral code" to follow whether they want to or not?

I wouldn't know. I'd hope so.

[G-Roll]

to further take it would modern law be better morally than anything that was formed back in biblical times. you know good old stoning, genocide like in the OT, the encouragement of slavery, and so forth.
i just dont see how one can claim that a faith that was formed back in the bronze age "and doesnt change" is considered moral. sure there are good things to take from it, but why not just be moral and modern? why believe that because you accept primitive superstition that you are more moral than someone who doesnt. not implying that you stated anything like that.

[Adrian Simmons]

The thing is people have all sorts of ideas like slavery as the centuries progress. I'm sure it would have happened without religion. People can twist ideas to justify many things and I wouldn't have put it past people in a society without God to say something along the the lines of let's enslave or eliminate some people, survival of the fittest, that kind of thing, and people would have gone along with it. As I say anything can be twisted, it doesn't have to be true or accurate, just believeable enough. Hitler managed to twist a lot of people's minds, I'm sure it can easily be done in an atheist society as well as a religious one. Morally, religion has plenty to offer, and atheism, although it doesn't have a moral code, can contribute too. If God exists I don't think he'd break down and cry if some people don't believe in him, let alone punish anyone, so to me, belief in God is just a harmless belief in itself, just as atheism is a harmless view also. It's what you do with your views that matters.

[G-Roll]

The thing is people have all sorts of ideas like slavery as the centuries progress. I'm sure it would have happened without religion. People can twist ideas to justify many things and I wouldn't have put it past people in a society without God to say something along the the lines of let's enslave or eliminate some people, survival of the fittest, that kind of thing, and people would have gone along with it. As I say anything can be twisted, it doesn't have to be true or accurate, just believable enough.

i agree but thats not what im saying. everyone has a "moral code" whether they want it or not. if you break the law (the social contract) you go to jail. so in a since everyone is moral... or imprisoned. regardless of their faith.

Morally, religion has plenty to offer, and atheism, although it doesn't have a moral code, can contribute too.

how does atheism contribute to morality? perhaps the removal of gods/superstitions in other affairs?

belief in God is just a harmless belief in itself, just as atheism is a harmless view also. It's what you do with your views that matters.

well said.

[Adrian Simmons]

The thing is people have all sorts of ideas like slavery as the centuries progress. I'm sure it would have happened without religion. People can twist ideas to justify many things and I wouldn't have put it past people in a society without God to say something along the the lines of let's enslave or eliminate some people, survival of the fittest, that kind of thing, and people would have gone along with it. As I say anything can be twisted, it doesn't have to be true or accurate, just believable enough.

i agree but thats not what im saying. everyone has a "moral code" whether they want it or not. if you break the law (the social contract) you go to jail. so in a since everyone is moral... or imprisoned. regardless of their faith.

Morally, religion has plenty to offer, and atheism, although it doesn't have a moral code, can contribute too.

how does atheism contribute to morality? perhaps the removal of gods/superstitions in other affairs?

belief in God is just a harmless belief in itself, just as atheism is a harmless view also. It's what you do with your views that matters.

well said.

I meant that atheism contributes to society because it encourages people to question everything. But I don't think that there's any need to remove gods or superstitions, on the contrary society is richer for it. Without religions and superstitions, cultures would be more boring, everything would be blander and I don't fancy the idea. I don't know if you've ever seen the strange ceremonies that the Dogon tribe in Africa have, but they look like fun. And who cares if sometimes they influence other areas of life? It's all just a bit of fun, you don't have to believe in it.

[Puddinhead]

I agree with what a lot of people have said.

I don't think it comes down to any *one* thing.  When I was a fundy, and I would begin to doubt or see an inconsistancy, I would find myself awash in a flood of apologetic props.  I think the biggest one was my inherent worthlessness as a sinner.  "Who am I to question the Grand Poobah of All"?  Throw in a touch of Pascal's Wager and the idea that "God is an enigma" along with a bit of "Blind Faith is a virtue.  Just keep believing anyway and I'll get a reward!"

Sticky little web that is.

[elliebean]

Setting aside for a moment that I disagree with a lot of the "moral" teachings of much of christianity, and the fact that many christians fail to live within the confines of those teachings; More often than not, I see very religious people's sense of morality limited by their adherence to those moral codes, rather than enhanced by it.