What Am I? - In Need of Friendly Guidance

[semperfitca]

Hey all, I'm new to the forum so hopefully I'm posting in the right place.  To start off, I want to say that I'm unsure of where I'm at belief-wise and think it would be helpful to talk things out with other people so I can move in the right direction.  What I'm NOT looking for is to be made fun of or ridiculed...that's be counter-productive.

I was raised catholic but out-grew that not long after figuring out there was no Santa Claus.  At present I find myself drawn to pantheism, buddhism, taoism, paganism...for various reasons (love of nature, attraction to balance, repulsion of authoritarian religions,etc.)  I do watch a lot of atheist-related videos on youtube and are very drawn to them, but am not yet completely sold.  Or maybe I am and just don't know it...that's why I'd like to talk things out with others.

First of all, I've noticed that many atheists don't like or lump buddhism in with other religions.  I could maybe see this if you look at tibetan buddhism with the various buddhas and gods.  But I don't really see a conflict with zen buddhism for example.  As I see it, zen buddhism is secular/atheist and stresses logic and seeing the world clearly through meditation (a psychological discipline).  So I don't see why atheists would find buddhism objectionable.  As a related point, it seems many atheists don't particularly like Sam Harris (who seems somewhat buddhist to me).

Secondly (and this is where I'd really like some clarification through discussion and not be attacked or ridiculed)...I'm unsure of the topics of the supernatural/psychic/paranormal.  It seems like it would be unscientific to dismiss something (whether it sounds crazy or not) without thoroughly testing it.  Also since science advances through the decades, things that are unproven would always have to be re-tested.  Bacteria at one point may have sounded like the idea of a mad man early on, but only after science obtained the microscope were we able to actually prove bacteria existed.  Similarly, how can we say ghosts, telepathy, auras, whatever else are crazy figments of people's imagination just because we don't have the ability/science/instruments to test for them right now.  This is the area that is keeping me from making the jump to atheism.

I'm sure these topics have come up before so I'm eager to hear what other people have to say to help me figure everything out.  I guess it really doesn't matter if I label myself as atheist, or buddhist, or pantheist...but for some reason it feels better to find a "place" for yourself and your beliefs/non-beliefs.

Thanks

Steve

[pinkocommie]

First of all, I've noticed that many atheists don't like or lump buddhism in with other religions.  I could maybe see this if you look at tibetan buddhism with the various buddhas and gods.  But I don't really see a conflict with zen buddhism for example.  As I see it, zen buddhism is secular/atheist and stresses logic and seeing the world clearly through meditation (a psychological discipline).  So I don't see why atheists would find buddhism objectionable.  As a related point, it seems many atheists don't particularly like Sam Harris (who seems somewhat buddhist to me).

Secondly (and this is where I'd really like some clarification through discussion and not be attacked or ridiculed)...I'm unsure of the topics of the supernatural/psychic/paranormal.  It seems like it would be unscientific to dismiss something (whether it sounds crazy or not) without thoroughly testing it.  Also since science advances through the decades, things that are unproven would always have to be re-tested.  Bacteria at one point may have sounded like the idea of a mad man early on, but only after science obtained the microscope were we able to actually prove bacteria existed.  Similarly, how can we say ghosts, telepathy, auras, whatever else are crazy figments of people's imagination just because we don't have the ability/science/instruments to test for them right now.  This is the area that is keeping me from making the jump to atheism.

I'm sure these topics have come up before so I'm eager to hear what other people have to say to help me figure everything out.  I guess it really doesn't matter if I label myself as atheist, or buddhist, or pantheist...but for some reason it feels better to find a "place" for yourself and your beliefs/non-beliefs.

Thanks

Steve

On Buddhism - I only studied Zen Buddhism on my own for about a year, so I'm no expert by any means, but I don't see how Zen Buddhism conflicts with atheism in any way since Zen is a philosophy solely focused on the present - what happens next and what happened before doesn't matter, only existence in the moment matters, etc.  I think a distinction can be made between philosophical Buddhists and theistic Buddhists so when atheists lump Buddhism together with other religions, I just assume they mean theistic Buddhism and not philosophical Buddhism.  Of course, some atheists may not make that distinction, but I personally do.

About the supernatural, I have this exact same conversation with my Pagan friend quite a bit.  The way I see it, science is a method by which we gain knowledge about the physical world.  As it stands right now, ghosts, telepathy, auras, etc. can't be verified or tested so I don't really concern myself about that kind of thing.  However, it's entirely possible that there are scientific or natural explanations for these things and we are thus far unable to quantify that information so instead we call it a ghost or an aura or whatever.  But, that's a pretty big what-if to base belief on in my opinion, so I feel secure in saying that I don't believe in ghosts.  When/if the evidence presents itself, I'll be excited to learn about it and I would have no reason to reject the idea.

I feel secure in rejecting the idea of ghosts for the same reason I feel secure in rejecting the idea of god - there is no proof beyond personal opinion that those things are real.  I feel like it's ok to not believe in god or ghosts because I also don't believe in other things, not because I've proven they don't exist but because I have no reason to believe they do.

To some people, this seems closed minded, but it's the same process of rejection people use to make decisions every day.  If someone who is sick avoids buying a miracle cure for cancer off the internet, it isn't because they're closed minded, it's because that person doesn't think that the evidence that the cure works is strong enough to consider it worth buying.  Now, comparing an internet magical cure to god isn't my intention.  Obviously the two are very different, which is why one is referred to as snake oil and the other is a subject some people dismiss completely while others are willing to kill or die for.  The amount of evidence we need in order to determine whether or not something is true is specific to each individual.  

Also, there's nothing more to being an atheist than the lack of belief in god.  A lot of atheists are also skeptics, but that's just how it is, it's not 'required'  .  And, there's no reason you have to label yourself at all.  If you have enough evidence that god might exist, then you do.  It's just important to distinguish between evidence which is personal which may only be significant to you versus scientific evidence which is far less subject to perception and can be replicated.

Sorry this is so long, and welcome to the forum!

[elliebean]

Welcome to the forum!  

[G-Roll]

you sound agnostic to me. maybe an agnostic diest?

the supernatural and atheisim are 2 different subjects as pinko pointed out. i dont see how it matters if ghosts exists, although that would be some really cool gee whiz info. i would then leave the military and become a ghost buster... unless there was some kind of ghost civil rights movement. i think they should have the right to enjoy a peaceful afterlife. they where once human after all. however should the ghost behave in any horror movie kind of way, he gets a face full of proton pack.

At present I find myself drawn to pantheism, buddhism, taoism, paganism...for various reasons (love of nature, attraction to balance, repulsion of authoritarian religions,etc.) I do watch a lot of atheist-related videos on youtube and are very drawn to them, but am not yet completely sold. Or maybe I am and just don't know it...that's why I'd like to talk things out with others.

i too am drawn to balance, nature, and dont like religious figures telling me who i am and what i need to believe. my advice to you is to try and become pagan, buddist, or.... whatever before you go atheist. if you cannot come to believe in gods, goddesses, and deities then you might be on to atheisim. but you never know if you dont try it out.
for example i really like norse mythology. i would be into asatru and toss runes for odins guidance but, despite my northern viking ancestry i think its utterly silly to seek out a deity i have no belief in what so ever.

[Typist]

semperfitca, welcome to the forum.   Thanks for your thoughtful intro.

I was struck that you may have created an answer for yourself in the title of your thread.

What am I?

Serious people have spent their lives considering those three words.  

Are you an atheist?  Are you a theist?  Are you a Republican or Democrat?  Some people would propose that we can't be any of these things, because these things can change from day to day.   Our relationship with these terms can change repeatedly, and the terms themselves take on new meanings all the time.  

Maybe these ideas might be seen as clothes which we can take on and off.

What's underneath?    

What remains no matter what clothes we're wearing.

What am I?

[Sophus]

I would say don't worry about labels. MY World-view reads as atheist but technically I'm a pantheist as well and even agree with a number of the Buddhist philosophy. So to me, it doesn't matter what someone else or I calle myself. If you give it enough thought you'll realize what you agree with. But don't become too concerned with labels. If we cherish them they'll hinder us from changing our views in the future.  

[semperfitca]

Hey everyone...

First off I'd like to thank you all for being friendly and helpful.  It's definitely easier talking through things when the environment isn't hostile.  Regarding gods and goddesses (which GRoll mentioned), I actually don't believe in either (in the traditional sense at least).  And from talking to some pagan friends, taking a pantheistic view of paganism is acceptable (where the god/goddess are seen as labels given to different aspects of nature, not like a christian spirit in the clouds overseeing everything).

As for the various supernatural phenomena, I think it'd be very interesting if they were real, but I neither believe nor disbelieve.  It's something I like/enjoy exploring for myself (unlike a fundie christian believing what they're told to believe).  Some people like coin collecting, while I find the paranormal fascinating.  Maybe some atheists would think I'm crazy, but whether someone likes doing experiments on telepathy, or hunting ghosts (which may or may not exist), or dressing up like a trekkie or harry potter and going to comic-con, I think it's relatively harmless.  No beliefs are being pushed onto others, no laws being passed or taken away, no planes being directed toward skyscrapers...

[karateman7]

I think it's important for you to educate yourself in anything you're interested in before you jump in. It's really easy to get swayed by half truths. I was in the same position as you so I can relate. I'm still looking into Zen Buddhism. But, before, I almost got into Islam because the guy who I heard talk during a debate with an atheist sounded so convincing, but after I researched and educated myself, it was all the same crap. Same thing with Hinduism.

[fdesilva]

Life offers a multitude of choices. In my life, there is one choice I have come to trust. It’s the choice, to be of service to others.

[davidraphael]

Tibetan Buddhism is syncretical with local shamanistic traditions (and contains some supernatural aspects) so one could argue that it's not strictly pure Buddhism. Having 1st studied Tibetan, then dabbled in zen, I eventually found the older Theravada Buddhism to be nearer to the original texts and more suitable for my interests. There are some supernatural elements in many branches of Buddhism, but they're not written in stone and don't have to be believed for one to be a Buddhist. Overall, Buddhism is more scientific than other religions (the mono theists) because it is progressive. As the Dalai Lama has said (to paraphrase) 'if something is realised in science that contradicts Buddhist belief then it is the Buddhist belief that should be reassessed and adapted accordingly'. This could never truly happen in the mono-theistic traditions.

I'm not sure I understand being pantheistic AND Atheist. Pantheists believe that god IS the universe (or that all gods are to be believed). Atheists don't believe in a god of any description. I understand the profound feeling that one experiences when faced with nature, but it's not necessary (as an atheist) to believe that this a god. Nature and the universe are full of profound wonder and do not require a god label for them to be profound. I think even more so, because we're open to discover new and interesting facts. In science there will always be new questions and new answers. It's ok if science is proven wrong. it's part of the job. Religion already offers answers. Its world views are fixed and unchangeable, therefore limited.

Supernatural stuff. A real scientist will always look at any phenomena objectively and assess the probability of its existence. There is no evidence yet that ghosts etc exist. However, if evidence does come to light that proves ghosts exist, science will happily change its opinion. Science itself is not a belief, it's a method for assessing data and observing the universe. When scientists says that ghosts do not exist it means that they do not currently have any evidence, in fact they have more evidence to the contrary (findings in physics, neurology, psychology, etc).

As other people have said, you will find your own way. As long as you keep asking questions you'll be ok

[SSY]

i would then leave the military and become a ghost buster... unless there was some kind of ghost civil rights movement. i think they should have the right to enjoy a peaceful afterlife. they where once human after all. however should the ghost behave in any horror movie kind of way, he gets a face full of proton pack.

Sir, should I ever get the opportunity to form a government, you shall be in my cabinet, appointed as PM, Poltergeist Minister. Your thoughtful and level headed policy manifesto will be an asset to my administration.

[Dretlin]

As long as you keep asking questions you'll be ok

I could not agree more.