Are Theist right or Are Atheist right, Yes to both

[Mark L Holland]

Atheists are correct when they say that God or Gods do not exist.  Theists are correct when they say that God or Gods do exist.  The problem is not that a Theist believes in God or Gods, if a Theist has been given the evidence and proofs needed to believe that God or Gods exist then God or Gods exist to them.

Atheists who have not been given proofs or evidence for the existence of God or Gods are correct that God or Gods do not exist.  Atheist are correct and Theists are correct.  The problem that Theists have is that some are brain dead and incapable of intelligent thought.  I am a Theist, I have been given the evidence and proofs that I need to believe so for me God or Gods do exist.  

But these evidences and proofs are given on a personal level, they are not intended as universal proofs.  The evidence and proofs that I have been given are worthless for anyone else they are only valid for me.  The theists who receive these personal and individual proofs or evidence generally accept them for what they are, individual and personal proofs meant for them personally.

But there are some brain dead Theists who believe that these personal and individual proofs and evidences allow them to speak with Gods voice and authority.  And these arses are wrong.  There is another type of Theist and these are the Theists that have never been given any evidences or proofs but were raised in Theist house holds and indoctrinated into the Faith with only their teachings to go on.  These Theists are the dangerous ones.

If God or Gods do exist, and these God or Gods have given individual and personal proofs and evidence to individuals to establish their existence.  Then there is no reason for these Gods or Gods not to do the same to all others other then that they do not want to.  And if the Gods or God do not want everyone to believe in them, then by what right do Theists claim the right to enforce God Hood beliefs when the Gods themselves do not want Universal God Hood Beliefs.

And they show this by not touching every soul and saying (I am Here).  If the Gods themselves do not want universal belief, by what right does any religion claim the right to enforce a universal belief.  Atheists have it easy, regardless of their other differences they all agree on one thing that God or Gods do not exist.

Theists on the other hand have a much harder time of it, while they can agree that there is a God they cannot agree on the name, image and persona of this God, this alone should prove beyond a doubt that no universal God exist, but as I said earlier there is the brain dead and delusional factor involved with many Theists.

So in the end both are right the Atheists and the Theists are both right, God or Gods do not exist while at the same time Theists are right God or Gods do exist.  But until God or Gods give universal proofs and evidences no universal God can exist.
 

[Ihateusernames]

In this post I will attempt to demonstrate in a verbose and un-eloquent way that the law of non-contradiction proves my ineptitude of arguing on a philosophic level.  The following conclusively does this.

Atheists are correct when they say that God or Gods do not exist.  Theists are correct when they say that God or Gods do exist.  The problem is not that a Theist believes in God or Gods, if a Theist has been given the evidence and proofs needed to believe that God or Gods exist then God or Gods exist to them.

Atheists who have not been given proofs or evidence for the existence of God or Gods are correct that God or Gods do not exist.  Atheist are correct and Theists are correct.  The problem that Theists have is that some are brain dead and incapable of intelligent thought.  I am a Theist, I have been given the evidence and proofs that I need to believe so for me God or Gods do exist.  

But these evidences and proofs are given on a personal level, they are not intended as universal proofs.  The evidence and proofs that I have been given are worthless for anyone else they are only valid for me.  The theists who receive these personal and individual proofs or evidence generally accept them for what they are, individual and personal proofs meant for them personally.

But there are some brain dead Theists who believe that these personal and individual proofs and evidences allow them to speak with Gods voice and authority.  And these arses are wrong.  There is another type of Theist and these are the Theists that have never been given any evidences or proofs but were raised in Theist house holds and indoctrinated into the Faith with only their teachings to go on.  These Theists are the dangerous ones.

If God or Gods do exist, and these God or Gods have given individual and personal proofs and evidence to individuals to establish their existence.  Then there is no reason for these Gods or Gods not to do the same to all others other then that they do not want to.  And if the Gods or God do not want everyone to believe in them, then by what right do Theists claim the right to enforce God Hood beliefs when the Gods themselves do not want Universal God Hood Beliefs.

And they show this by not touching every soul and saying (I am Here).  If the Gods themselves do not want universal belief, by what right does any religion claim the right to enforce a universal belief.  Atheists have it easy, regardless of their other differences they all agree on one thing that God or Gods do not exist.

Theists on the other hand have a much harder time of it, while they can agree that there is a God they cannot agree on the name, image and persona of this God, this alone should prove beyond a doubt that no universal God exist, but as I said earlier there is the brain dead and delusional factor involved with many Theists.

So in the end both are right the Atheists and the Theists are both right, God or Gods do not exist while at the same time Theists are right God or Gods do exist.  But until God or Gods give universal proofs and evidences no universal God can exist.
 

I'm going to be honest, after reading your first 36 posts I really dislike you on an intellectual level. No offense intended but I inserted a nice 'lil thesis for your post toward the top, hope you don't mind me altering your post a tad.

-Ihateusernames

[Ihateusernames]

(note: too many snarky responses to this popped into my head at the same time so I just have to post another.  Pardon me if I'm being overly evil.  :hide:

[Whitney]

While ihateusernames could have said it more nicely (hits him with stick); his point about the law of non-contradiction is what I was talking about in the other thread where you basically said this same thing as in your OP.

[Ihateusernames]

While ihateusernames could have said it more nicely (hits him with stick); his point about the law of non-contradiction is what I was talking about in the other thread where you basically said this same thing as in your OP.

ouch!  

[Mark L Holland]

To Ihateusernames

  Trust me no harm done I love the way that you did your post.  I do not agree of course but I loved it anyways.
 

[Mark L Holland]

(note: too many snarky responses to this popped into my head at the same time so I just have to post another.  Pardon me if I'm being overly evil.  :hide:

Actually I like your analogy. It is very similar to what I am talking about.  Though I am shamed to admit it the alien you thought was next to my side trying to probe me not only lost his probe to my knife but also received the probe he was trying to give me into his backside.  I do not claim that anything I say is fact, I simply say that what I say is what I believe which is in no way fact.  Yep that little green devil seems to like pointed things up his rear.
 

[Mark L Holland]

This is the thing that Atheists seem to loose sight of.  When talking to Theists you cannot expect them to listen to secular arguments it is not in their makeup.  You may say that imposing ones religious beliefs upon people who do not accept those beliefs is wrong but in their minds they believe that they are following the laws of their God and that they are righteous in what they are doing.

  I have been advocating that Atheists need to bring in non Christian Theists into their ranks because Theists can fight Christian Theists on their own battleground while Christian Theists can disregard Atheists as being unenlightened they cannot use the same argument against non Christian Theists.

  I believe in a God or Gods what I challenge Christians on is not whether God or Gods exist but I challenge them on what right they claim their God is superior and by what right they claim a universal God authority when nothing in human history shows that a universal God exists.

  I did not join the American Atheists as a Joke I joined them because I believe no Theist belief should be enforced by secular law or government enforcement.  So have your fun, but the fact is I am trying to do you a favor by giving you a means of attacking Christian Theists that you yourselves do not have.
 

[Mark L Holland]

So this law of contradiction is the same law used during the dark ages.  darn I had thought we had outgrown that by now.  So if it cannot be seen, felt or tasted it cannot exist.  Reminds me of some religious fruit cakes in the past.  So I assume that you gents do not believe in other worlds or black holes or anything that you personally have not tasted, smelt or felt.  Then I must pity you as I pity the dark age religious nuts.

  Ok so nothing exists outside of what your eyes can see, your hands can touch or nose smell or ears hear.  Gee why not call you all Catholics.  That would be fitting I think.
 

[Mark L Holland]

To Ihateusernames

  So let me take this from your posts.  That all Theists are wrong, that no Theist belief can be right because you yourself are an Atheist and that since you have been given no proofs or evidence that God or Gods exist then God or Gods cannot exist.  If this is your stand then you are right.

  Now if you are an American then the fact is that we pathetically brain dead theists have a right to our pathetically brain dead beliefs so long as those pathetically brain dead beliefs do no harm to others.  If you are against this then you are an equally brain dead Atheist.  Theist beliefs when held as individual and personal are no threat to anyone.  If you are against all Theist beliefs as being invalid.  Then should you live in a nice dictatorship abroad.

  I thought that the advantages of being an American is the freedom to believe as one wishes to believe, but if you are an Atheist dictator I can see where such a belief is a problem for you.  Gee which would I rather live under a Religious Dictatorship or an Atheist Dictatorship.  Tough question.

  If a Theist is no threat to you why would your make that Theist an enemy to you.  Are you simply a sucker for punishment or what.
 

[Ihateusernames]

To Ihateusernames

  So let me take this from your posts.  That all Theists are wrong, that no Theist belief can be right because you yourself are an Atheist and that since you have been given no proofs or evidence that God or Gods exist then God or Gods cannot exist.  If this is your stand then you are right.

I must respond, I suppose since it was directed to me... >_>

I believe what you should take from my posts is that either theists are correct, atheists are correct, or the laws of logic are useless and they are both correct. Or incorrect.  Or.. something.  I mean you can't even think about it because lacking logic, language, thought, errr... everything makes absolutely no sense.  Even sense makes no sense.  Logic is pretty important ; )

Now if you are an American then the fact is that we pathetically brain dead theists have a right to our pathetically brain dead beliefs so long as those pathetically brain dead beliefs do no harm to others.  If you are against this then you are an equally brain dead Atheist.  Theist beliefs when held as individual and personal are no threat to anyone.  If you are against all Theist beliefs as being invalid.  Then should you live in a nice dictatorship abroad.

I may be odd (I am philosophically trapped between ethical nihilism and theistic morality afterall...) but my ethical nihilistic side doesn't believe in 'rights'.  So, no, you don't have the right to believe whatever you want.  You might have the social construct that allows you to (sortof) but not a 'right' whatever that means.

That being said my theistic side believes everyone has the right to believe whatever they want (free will arguments stem from this obviously ; d), but depending on what God actually exists, also have the responsibility to that God to do according to what he/she/it has requested.

I thought that the advantages of being an American is the freedom to believe as one wishes to believe, but if you are an Atheist dictator I can see where such a belief is a problem for you.  Gee which would I rather live under a Religious Dictatorship or an Atheist Dictatorship.  Tough question.

  If a Theist is no threat to you why would your make that Theist an enemy to you.  Are you simply a sucker for punishment or what.
 

[/soapbox]

-Ihateusernames

PS: also, just a side point, but an "enemy" on a internet message board really isn't scary at all.  Heck you could all hate me here and I wouldn't give a flying flip! ^_^ (to steal the smiley you seem to like.)

[Mark L Holland]

To Ihateusernames

  I am not sure why you think I hate Catholics?  I despise all of Christianity, except  maybe for the Quakers and their likes.  Catholics, Baptists, Lutherans I see little difference between them.  As for the rest, what the heck.  
 

[Ihateusernames]

To Ihateusernames

  I am not sure why you think I hate Catholics?  I despise all of Christianity, except  maybe for the Quakers and their likes.  Catholics, Baptists, Lutherans I see little difference between them.  As for the rest, what the heck.  
 

[Renegnicat]

Ah, five Mark L Holland A break, Ihateusernames. I mean--come on, for once, a theist who doesn't immediately shake with rage at the mention of the word "atheist"! Certainly, his education level isn't the highest, but that's no reason to pick on a guy that, at first glance, portrays the jolly green giant of theism. Nice!  

[Ihateusernames]

Ah, five Mark L Holland A break, Ihateusernames. I mean--come on, for once, a theist who doesn't immediately shake with rage at the mention of the word "atheist"! Certainly, his education level isn't the highest, but that's no reason to pick on a guy that, at first glance, portrays the jolly green giant of theism. Nice!   streak to online social interactions with certain types of people.

-Ihateusernames