My Aunt's Crusade

[Chimera]

I hope this is the appropriate place for this thread. If not, someone can move it.

I have been very open about being an atheist on Facebook and Twitter. I'm rather open about it in real life too, except to my parents. My dad's family is fairly religious and my aunt, who has seen all of my posts on atheism, has taken it upon herself to bring me back to God.

For those who don't know, I was raised Christian and was very involved in the church, to the point of being a missionary in India for a short time. After returning from the mission, I began to question my faith and it led, ultimately, to my abandoning it in favor of reason.

A few days ago, my aunt responded to a post of my on Facebook, telling me she was sorry I thought I was an atheist and that she would be praying for me. I responded by saying I didn't think I was an atheist, I knew it and it wasn't something I took lightly.

Today, in my email, I received another message from her:

I love you very much. I had a wonderful time getting to know you this summer and I hope you don't get mad at me, but I have to try to bring you back to God.
 
I am going to send you some books by Josh McDowell.  He was an atheist and set out to prove God did not exist, well he found out that he does and is now a Christian.  He spoke at our church in September.  I don't know what books or research you did to come to the conclusion that there is no God, but please give me a chance to prove that there is a God.  I think that deep down in your heart you know there is.  There have been many times in my life when my faith faltered, but God has been with me through some terrible times and some great times.  When Christopher was addicted to Meth, God was there.  Even some of the people at re-hab could see that God had protected him through something's that should have killed him.  I prayed unceasing for God to protect Chris and for Chris to go to Re-hab and get off the drugs and it happened.  I went to sleep praying and woke up praying.  Even Uncle John prayed.  That was the biggy, but there have been many other times I could feel him with me, helping me to stand strong, or enjoying a good time. Everyday I wake up and thank God for my family, my friends and all the people of the world.  The earth didn't just happen by accident, any more than a building gets built by accident.  Somebody created it.
 
 
I love you very much,
Aunt Donna

I'm familiar with McDowell. I attended a seminar he gave in my hometown several years ago and I've read some of his books. I'm looking forward to eviscerating his arguments--who's with me? I'd like to post about it here and get feedback from my fellow nonbelievers.

[LoneMateria]

This probably belongs in the Religion section but oh well.  Looks like you will have some fun.  I'd be glad to read what he has to say if you feel like posting the arguments that will probably be poor and ill conceived.  I'd recommend you have an e-mail conversation with your aunt and ask her some mundane atheist questions like why would god allow suffering?  Or why would God care about a Meth head while today 30,000 children around the world will starve to death?  Just some stuff like that to get her outside her comfort zone and get her thinking.  Once you read the books and are still an atheist you should send her e-mails back thanking her for the books and tell her they re-affirmed your atheism.

At least thats my recommendation.

[Squid]

McDowell is full of crap, I'm sorry you've had to endure one of his seminars.

[McQ]

It's fine to post this here, so no sweat. The bigger issue is obviously your well-meaning aunt. I know where she's coming from. I imagine you do too, being a former missionary. She can't think of a higher obligation than to bring lost sheep back into the fold. This will be a life-long mission for her and I hope you're ready for it. Most likely it will go through many stages, and some of them will be ugly. Your family will think about you differently. They will not believe you're the same wonderful person they knew and loved. They will be convinced that the devil has a grip on you and will try all means to get you back. Be prepared.

I've also read and seen Josh McDowell. What a load of shit that guy can sling.

We've got your back, so hang in there and ask for help if you need it.

[Whitney]

I found this when googling what kind of books McDowell wrote...I haven't heard of most of them; I think the only one I had heard of was "evidence which demands a verdict"

Anyway, this looks like a chapter by chapter refutation of Evidence which demands a verdict:  http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ ... wder/jury/

If you feel up to is go through the book your aunt sends, and highlight logical fallacies with a yellow marker, special pleading with a blue marker and ourtright misinformation with a red marker (can you tell i like color coding?).  Then jot down little notes to the side and a link to further reading.  This way she will know that you read it and that you are thinking about this stuff...and it will force her to have to research the other side in an attemp to disprove you.

I've started doing the above to a bible only just highlighting anything that is either immoral or ourtright insane in blue then little notes to the side....I expect to be done with it in 50 years at the rate I'm able to pay attention to reading it again.  When it is done I figured it would be something I can hand off to anyone who tries to claim I didn't read the bible....and thought that it would be kinda fun to maybe publish a bible called "why Jefferson scaped most of the bible" that is just a bible with all the immoral crazy crap highlighted so that the insanity of it is visually apparent.

[Chimera]

One of the guys in my Meetup group told me about the Infidels link too. It looks pretty useful. I don't know which of his books she's sending, but I'd imagine that Evidence That Demands a Verdict is one, and we actually already have a copy of that here. My dad got it back when McDowell was in town.

I like the highlighting idea,

[Whitney]

I'd like to send a few books her way too, but I think it might be a waste of my time and money.
[youtube:3rt6yu10]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTWbxH1ho70[/youtube:3rt6yu10]

[Big Mac]

McDowell is full of crap, I'm sorry you've had to endure one of his seminars.

I'd rather take him over Ed Aimsworth. I think that man makes Texans look really bad. Sad thing is, he talks about his first sexual encounter being at the Driskill in Downtown Austin. I literally work 2 blocks away and I can't help but look at that lovely establishment with a jaded eye.

God I hate assholes like him.

[SSY]

Why not kindly inform her that her bringing you back to god is fine, as long as she allows you to outline the case for atheism?

People sending you books is not really much of a try anyway, if she was really convinced, or had conviction in her beliefs, she would at least try and debate with you instead of " Here are some books, I hope you read them and hope you agree with them like I did."

[Ellainix]

She probably understood non of the concepts but was convinced they really showed how real gods are.

[Renegnicat]

Your aunt seems to care about you quite a bit. I will say, however, that destroying her faith in god is not a good idea. You are young and have your entire life ahead of you, but someone who has spent more than 50 years believing in religion, only to have it taken away from them...

You see, religion is more than an idea or doctrine. It is an identity, if aspired to long enough. When you've been someone your whole life, you become that someone, more than anything else. To have that taken away would leave a vacous void that not many past the age of fifty could fill.

I understand your reasoning process behind wanting to be an atheist. I understand your aunts as well. But if you grapply with her full force, confront her with your reasons and your logic that can't be withstood, you will only succeed in destroying another human being's happiness.

I am not suggesting that you should return to the fold or become christian again. Just know that to walk this path is to place value on uncountable suffering. It is not an easy path to walk.

[Will]

"Mr. McDowell, are you suggesting that if you still used drugs, god wouldn't exist? What about all the people using drugs? What about the fact that atheists have a lower instance of illegal drug abuse? How do you know it wasn't Zeus or Shiva that stripped you of your addictions?"

Regarding your aunt, I would respond in kind as an illustration.

I love you very much. I had a wonderful time getting to know you this summer and I hope you don't get mad at me, but I have to try to bring you back to atheism.

I am going to send you some books by Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, and Dan Dennett because I'm taking it upon myself to gently force my personal religious beliefs on other people.

I love you very much,
Chimera

[joeactor]

Regarding your aunt, I would respond in kind as an illustration.

I love you very much. I had a wonderful time getting to know you this summer and I hope you don't get mad at me, but I have to try to bring you back to atheism.

I am going to send you some books by Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, and Dan Dennett because I'm taking it upon myself to gently force my personal religious beliefs on other people.

I love you very much,
Chimera

Ok - I LOL'd!

It's a tough scenario.  My mother would ask if I'd found a church every time we talked.  I learned to politely say "no", or joke it away by saying "they only have synagogues here, so I'd need to renounce Jesus".  After a time, she came to accept that my beliefs were different from hers.  We had quite a few deep conversations in her later years.

If your aunt is truly open to listening, try using personal experiences as a starting point for discussions.  For example, why did god allow Chris to become an addict in the first place?  What led you to doubt the faith you were raised in?  Would the outcomes she ascribes to prayer have been different if she hadn't prayed, but just been there for the person instead?

Doubt can be a good thing.  Your aunt may have to alter her beliefs, or at least find a middle ground to relate to you...

JoeActor

[LoneMateria]

I'm gonna add on to what JoeActor said.  Don't forget to be polite but not to the point where you are going to avoid asking tough questions.  Be direct and sincere. Keep in mind many theists don't think about their religious beliefs to the point of questioning them.  If I were to go into a conversation with her i'd bring some bible verses as backup.  I'd ask things like why does the bible advocate slavery and throw out passages like Exodus 21:7-11 and 1 Timothy 6:1-2 and Luke 12:47-8(when Jesus tells people how to beat their slaves).  Or if it's okay to commit genocide and infanticide like in 1 Samuel 15:2-3.  And ask if anyone but a monster would send bears to tear apart 42 children like in 2 Kings.  Again try to be polite because from her perspective she is trying to help you, but don't go into this unprepared.

[Chimera]

The books my aunt promised to send arrived today. She sent me Josh McDowell's The New Evidence That Demands a Verdict and Answers to Tough Questions Skeptics Ask About the Christian Faith. I have just over three weeks off from college for the holidays and I hope to have the books read within that time. I will also be posting my thoughts, questions, and interesting quotes from the books on here for your entertainment.

Thanks to everyone who commented last time, and I'm looking forward to this endeavor with you all!