Christ On the Cross

[G-Roll]

Maybe this should be posted in a Xian forum… but I’m not looking to be preached to or saved. Just looking for honest opinions

What was the purpose of killing Christ on the cross? I don’t mean the Romans or the Government at the time, but the whole sacrifice thing.  It get the rules of the time.
The best explanation I have received is original sin. But original sin never is mentioned until I believe the book of Paul. I know mentions in the New Testament saying because Adam sinned all have sinned. But that totally contradicts the Old Testament that often states you will be held and judged by your own actions. Not the sins of the father ect. Also in the fall of Adam, God only curses mankind (cause that’s what loving fathers do.. right?) to manual labor and painful childbirth. Also snakes are cursed to slither on their bellies and bite at men’s heels while men smack them on the head. Maybe that when snakes lost the ability to talk too…. No mention of original sin in the story of Adam or in the Old Testament at all.
Anyhow. If Jesus sacrifice was for “original sin” and the removal of this what all really changed? What was gained at Christ’s death? Before Christ was killed no one went to heaven or whatever?

Personally I think original sin was invented by man. And thrown in there by some self hating perverted born again. So all in all I suppose what Im asking is, if original sin is taken out of the equation what was the purpose of Christs sacrifice? And even if he rid the world of original sin what was really gained?

[Renegnicat]

What, do you think we're actually going to give a satisfactory answer?

Jesus didn't exist. He was all mythology. However, I will say that in mythology, usually when someone comes back from the dead, it's simply for their own glory and a kind of "sign" that they really are a god. After all, god's don't die, right?

Whereas, if he had preached, and preached, and preached... and was never crucified... then what's the point? Not a very good story, and it would seem like people just ignored the dude rather than followed him.

so: 1. It makes a better story.
2. It aids in the conversion of gentiles.

'nuff said.  

[G-Roll]

Lol that answer is far from unsatisfactory. Yeah I guess you have to die to be a martyr. Wouldnt want to do anything half assed.

[Renegnicat]

Hey, G-roll, need me to make an avatar for you? What would you like?

[Will]

I'm not a very good writer, but if I were writing the book of Matthew and needed a supreme act to endear the main character to people, it would be through sacrifice. This guy that selflessly became human in order to help people live (what he believed to be) a better and more moral life had to eventually allow himself to die in order to finally get people to really commit to is teachings.

What I don't get is why they brought him back.

Imagine a classic tale of sacrifice for the greater good, like the battle of Thermopylae. 300 Spartans defended the pass at Thermopylae against hundreds of thousands of Persians so that their friends and family could leave their homes safely. Each and every Spartan fought their very best until the last of them had fallen. They may have all died, but their sacrifice is the stuff of legend. Would that tale be as interesting if like 30 of them survived? Sure, it would be a great feat surviving such unbelievable odds, but wouldn't their survival take an essential ingredient from the story?

[squibalicous]

okay, going to take stab at this, its been a long time since CCD class but I think that Jesus was dying to release the souls in Purgatory into Heaven rather than making them wait for the End of Days when all will be judge... It's like getting the get out free jail card in Monopoly then getting a free trip to Go and collect you $200.

Or, its all bullshit anyway...

[Justme]

Beside others, Jesus had to die to be able to pop up from the dead again and to demonstrate that way the claimed god-status. (How convenient for the preachers.)

1. It doesn't show anything. It's just an old story with no evidence.

Let's assume he acutally was a real person and the crossing happend.

2. It only shows, that it made the appearence as if he would have died and was rosen from the dead later on. Uri Geller & Co. can do that too. (And those days they didn't have youtube to check it out.  . Later on he used his supposed dead for producing a nice miracle for his fellow people and to vanish then from the puplic in order to run away from the romans. You find people who believe he travelled to India. They even "know" where he lived there I think.

Let's assume he actually was dead and came back to life.

4. That's still not good enough. It shows, he was dead and came back to life. Although this is something reallyreally astonishing, it does surely not prove the god-claims. He could have been any kind of supernatural being, maybe even the devil, or a demon, or a vampire or whatever crazy stuff you can imagine. Or maybe he wasn't but he had a supernatural helper. This helper could have been god, but that doesn't automatically make Jesus a god too.

In summery: Nothing would be crazy enough, that you wouldn't find someone who believes it. Guess that's faith ...

[G-Roll]

Well the bible says nothing of purgatory. I guess that’s just cheery dark ages philosophy. Those guys where always a big ray of sunshine  
I did go and read some Christian writings that look into the whole crucifixion deal and it seemed like it pushed: what else does jesus have to do for you? It seemed to attempt a guilt trip on the reader. To question this ultimate sacrifice for the whole world. I just had the mental image of apologetics scolding people questioning this occurrence. “What else does jesus need to do for you to satisfy your simple question?” I guess if one wants to believe bad enough this would be a sufficient answer.

[Justme]

“What else does jesus need to do for you...

Actually, what kind of sacrifice was it (assuming the mostly believed version with crucifixion and resurrection is true). I often ask that question, but somehow christians are never able to see it like that: If I would have been in Jesus shoes (if he did wear some, ), donating a few unpleasant hours for the rescue of the whole mankind AND knowing that I won't be dead AND knowing I would become a real god afterwards ... guess I would have chosen the cross, too.

[Renegnicat]

Here's what you say everytime someone tries to guilt you into believing because of the horrible sacrifice that jesus had to go through:

"meh, people in hell have it worse."

[LoneMateria]

Here's what you say everytime someone tries to guilt you into believing because of the horrible sacrifice that jesus had to go through:

"meh, people in hell have it worse."

I always ask (I don't know if someone covered it here i'm not re-reading everything )  how is Christ dying a cross a sacrifice?  Since (to most) Christ is God then he knew he'd get beat to death and knew when he was dead he got to be God again.  How is that a sacrifice?  If I knew after dying I'd get to be God do you think dying would bother me or that i'd consider it a sacrifice?  

Also the truly screwed up part is that since he was God he did this (if you are a Christian) to save you from hell.  He invented a loophole to a rule he made up.  So why was the sacrifice necessary?  Couldn't he just have said .... fuck it and forgave everyone?  Not only is Christ on the cross not a sacrifice its nowhere near logical.  I've never had a Christian be able to explain to me satisfactory why THE ONLY WAY God could have forgiven our sins was by sending himself to earth and being beaten to death.

[Ellainix]

Here's what you say everytime someone tries to guilt you into believing because of the horrible sacrifice that jesus had to go through:

"meh, people in hell have it worse."

I always ask (I don't know if someone covered it here i'm not re-reading everything )  how is Christ dying a cross a sacrifice?  Since (to most) Christ is God then he knew he'd get beat to death and knew when he was dead he got to be God again.  How is that a sacrifice?  If I knew after dying I'd get to be God do you think dying would bother me or that i'd consider it a sacrifice?  

Also the truly screwed up part is that since he was God he did this (if you are a Christian) to save you from hell.  He invented a loophole to a rule he made up.  So why was the sacrifice necessary?  Couldn't he just have said .... fuck it and forgave everyone?  Not only is Christ on the cross not a sacrifice its nowhere near logical.  I've never had a Christian be able to explain to me satisfactory why THE ONLY WAY God could have forgiven our sins was by sending himself to earth and being beaten to death.

Well God is all powerful, all loving, all knowing, etc., so... and he has a plan for all of us. God moves in mysterious ways.

Does anyone think the idea of an all powerful God having a long term 10,000 year plan seem a little... dumb? If he were all-powerful he wouldn't need so much time to punish a dumb angel, if he were all-knowing he would have gotten really bored by now, if he actually had infinite love-mercy-grace how is it possible to send anyone to experience pain and loneliness for eternity?

[Mark L Holland]

A question that I have is what price did Jesus pay that would be considered redeeming of man kind.  He was a convicted criminal who was sentenced to death.  The Romans considered him a seditionist and that is what he was being executed for.  The flogging, beating and torture would have been done to all convicted criminals who were being crucified.  There was no difference between Jesus punishment and execution and the punishment and executions of the other convicted criminals.

  The contradictions and lies surrounding the crucifixion and resurrection give no clear indication that there was any grand plan at work here.  Just another criminal being executed on an ordinary day.  According to John Jesus did not tell the apostles anything about dying and being resurrected the apostles figured that Jesus was dead they were not expecting his return from the dead.  All of the resurrection stories are contradictory all of the stories of what happened at the sepulcher were contradictory and inconsistent with each other.

  Jesus was a Rabbi who ran afoul of the Romans who considered him a seditionist and ordered his execution.  Jesus died and end of story.  The apostles scrambled around trying to figure out a way to make a buck of the dead guy on the cross since the dead guy on the cross was their meal ticket.  And it is the apostles who concocted this whole God/Jesus fantasy.  

  The miracles recorded for the crucifixion are lies as John himself verify’ in his Gospel.  The miracles at the sepulcher were lies as the contradictions and inconsistencies of the Gospels show.  There was no great redeeming of mankind though there may have been a great damning of mankind with the creation of the Christian religion.
 

[G-Roll]

The gospel of Judas actually has Jesus telling Judas to sell him out. So that Jesus would have set in motion a series of events that would lead to his sacrifice or execution.
The reason I think it was taken out is it brings up Adams son Seth. And Jesus is equated with Seth: "The first is Seth, who is called Christ" and also says no mortal being can enter the Kingdom, and goes on about some kind of ancient cosmology stuff.
I would assume that Jesus had some idea about the plans of god his father, or if he was god (the trinity) that he knew his own plan. Just why does god need to kill himself or his son in the mortal flesh if he is all powerful, created man in his image, created sin and our ablity to sin, and so on....
Why not just be rid of it and be done with it. How is killing Jesus necessary to whatever god was truly trying to achieve?

I doubt it will ever make since to me.  

[Mark L Holland]

If a God wished to exert his authority and power over his creations I would think that he would be obvious about it.  Jesus was a very ordinary in his appearance and actions.  He was a Rabbi, as hundreds of other Rabbi’s in the area.  The claims of miracles are more likely imaginary.  The Romans worshipped and respected dozens of Gods if Jesus had demonstrated God like powers before the Centurions and Romans it would have been unlikely that they would have treated him as a mere criminal.

  Or even simpler Jesus could have removed the Romans from the Holy Land, destroyed the false priesthood and reformed a new priesthood based upon his teachings and began fresh.  Why would a true God demonstrate his supreme power by not demonstrating his supreme power.  There was nothing unusual about Jesus’ life and death for his time period.  How many claimed messiah’s died before or after the death of Jesus.  How many Rabbi’s were marked as insurgents or seditionists.  

  If God/Jesus had pealed himself off of the cross in front of hundreds of witness’s and Centurions healed himself and dropped a few of the Centurions in their tracks, this would probably have worked far better then the way it was done.