Obama's Healthcare Speech

[HandsandDreams]

Wow, no thread on this yet?  Guess I'll have to get the ball rolling.

So I watched the speech last night, and I thought Obama was very straightforward and clear.  I agreed with about 95% of his line of thinking, at least as he presented it in the speech.  If all of his promises hold up, I'd say go for it.

There were two bits that give me pause.

First, Obama clearly said "I will never pass a healthcare bill that adds one dime to our national deficit, not now or ever."  He detailed how the plan would be paid for by eliminating waste, reducing frivolous medical malpractice litigation, and putting more on insurance companies.  I thought that was pretty sound.  However, after the speech, the Republican Response claimed that this plan would add "hundreds of billions of dollars" to the national deficit, as stated by a non-partisan committee that had reviewed the bill.  So, who's right?  And how do we know?

Second, Obama stated clearly that no illegal immigrants would be covered in the new plan.  At this point a Republican yelled out "YOU LIE!" to the boos of the Dems.  To my thinking, if we don't cover illegals, they will continue to get uninsured, emergency room treatment that will ultimately fall on taxpayer shoulders.  Could this be what the Republican was angry about?  I'm not suggesting we cover illegal immigrants; I generally lean toward deportation in that arena.

What do y'all think?  

[joeactor]

I watched it too.

Funding the bill seems to be a less-than-crystal-clear point.  I'd like to see more details on that.

The most striking thing about the speech for me was watching the "stand-n-clap" dynamic.
Definitely some strong party lines there.

"No sir.  Not gonna stand.  Can't make me."

... and what's with the guy with the sign?  Really?  A sign?

I was glad he used the word "Lie" in relation to the whole "Death Panels" nonsense.
It's about time he stop using inaccurate language, and threw down the gauntlet on this wanton propaganda.
Call a spa... uh, you know what I mean...

Don't think any republicans changed sides, but he may have swayed the conservative dems and independents.

And can we please get off the fence on illegal immigrants?
If they're here illegally, either make them legal and give them the associated benefits, or send them back (which is not gonna happen).
There's gotta be a way to make it possible for hard-working immigrants to be here legally - isn't that a big part of what America's supposed to be about.

Huddled Masses,
JoeActor

[HandsandDreams]

The most striking thing about the speech for me was watching the "stand-n-clap" dynamic.
Definitely some strong party lines there.

I was watching that thinking, "OMG, that's got to be so annoying!  If you agree with him a lot, you're standing up and sitting down once every minute!  Some of those folks are seniors!"

I thought the part was funny when Obama mentioned medical litigation reform, and the right jumped out of their seats with cheers and the center and left booed the hell out of them.  Clearly a hot-button issue!

[HandsandDreams]

And can we please get off the fence on illegal immigrants?
If they're here illegally, either make them legal and give them the associated benefits, or send them back (which is not gonna happen).
There's gotta be a way to make it possible for hard-working immigrants to be here legally - isn't that a big part of what America's supposed to be about.

How about this: We round up all the 15 million illegals, give them a year's worth of the budget we already spend on them, suit them up with supplies, and cart them off to Mexico (or wherever) where we will help them have a political revolution.  Hell, with 15 million soldiers you could take over all of South America.  Unite the continent under one national government, legalize cocahina, and you got'choself a stew goin'!  That way they'll have their own country with awesome freedoms, so they would want to stay there.  We could trade.  Everybody wins.

[Ultima22689]

I think Obama did what he wanted to do. He cleared the air around health care reform which was necessary if he is going to get a bill passed. His taking of a strong stance against all of the blatant lies that have been said as of late has also given him some very much needed traction.

[Sheeplauncher]

health care aside im glad someone had the balls to express their opinions on something. I really don't see why this outburst was so offensive. Yes the president deserves some respect but look at the british house of commons. The party leadership basically just yells at each other.

[iNow]

There were two bits that give me pause.

First, Obama clearly said "I will never pass a healthcare bill that adds one dime to our national deficit, not now or ever."  He detailed how the plan would be paid for by eliminating waste, reducing frivolous medical malpractice litigation, and putting more on insurance companies.  I thought that was pretty sound.  However, after the speech, the Republican Response claimed that this plan would add "hundreds of billions of dollars" to the national deficit, as stated by a non-partisan committee that had reviewed the bill.  So, who's right?  And how do we know?

You must note that the Republican response was pre-written, and had those statements prepared and to be delivered regardless of what the president actually said.  Either way, the "non-partisan" committee to which they referred is the CBO, or the Congressional Budget Office, and there were a few issues with their estimates.


http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/ ... me=topNews

The Congressional Budget Office may be missing potential savings from various health reform proposals by not looking at efforts to manage or prevent expensive, chronic conditions such as diabetes and heart disease, researchers said in a study released on Tuesday.

<...>

The nonpartisan CBO, charged by Congress to estimate the cost of various programs, now uses a 10-year forecast that cannot look at the cost of programs aimed at diseases that can last for decades, researchers at the University of Chicago said.

Instead, the CBO should use methods that would weigh savings from earlier treatment and other intervention that could help reduce costly complications from conditions that arise when left untreated or improperly treated, they said.

Lawmakers need cost estimates that look at a period of 25 years for healthcare legislation, they said in their study, which was sponsored by diabetes drug maker Novo Nordisk A/S and looked at a scientific model to help estimate such costs for long-term diseases.

"Although this would not be necessary for the vast majority of cost estimates produced by the CBO, it would improve the information available when Congress considers health legislation with implications for the treatment of a relatively small number of costly chronic illnesses," they wrote.

In the study, researchers at the University of Chicago's National Opinion Research Center said new longer-term estimates would also help legislators and others estimate how having healthier, longer-living patients would affect costs.

Second, Obama stated clearly that no illegal immigrants would be covered in the new plan.  At this point a Republican yelled out "YOU LIE!" to the boos of the Dems.

I think the President is much more likely to be telling the truth in this arena.  First, this was a pretty major address to congress, and to the nation.  Viewers will be scrubbing every single word, phrase, and claim with a fine-toothed comb, and to lie in such a venue would open him to some pretty serious attacks, and would hurt his progress.  He's smarter than that, and is not likely to lie openly in such a venue (on par with the State of the Union address).  He said TWICE that immigrants in our country illegally would not be covered, and that claims suggesting otherwise are false.  I'm inclined to believe him, especially considering how many times we've seen "the other side" lying these last several months (death panels killing grandma and other such nonsense).  That's just my opinion, but I think I've made the case that the lies tend more often to come from the right on this issue, and it would not serve the president's interest to share a lie in such a venue anyway.

I watched it too.

Funding the bill seems to be a less-than-crystal-clear point.  I'd like to see more details on that.

There's a lot of useful and accessible information here.  You may spend some time checking it out:
http://content.healthaffairs.org/index.dtl

In sum, most of the funding will come from slight tweaks to the existing approaches, and just one tenth of one percent will have a several hundred billion dollar impact.  Further, I quite appreciated the context set at the end of his speech where he reminded people that this bill will cost less than the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, AND less than the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy.  I think that brings some much needed perspective on these questions surrounding costs, but I'm all in favor of healthcare reform so might be somewhat biased.  I just wonder sometimes, why is our public so willing to spend this amount of money killing strangers in other countries based on false claims and lies, but not willing to spend the same amount taking care of people in this country?  Why is it okay to spend money to take lives, but not to save them?  Just some food for thought...

health care aside im glad someone had the balls to express their opinions on something. I really don't see why this outburst was so offensive. Yes the president deserves some respect but look at the british house of commons. The party leadership basically just yells at each other.

It's against the rules of Congress, that's why.  This wasn't a Q&A session with the PM.  This was a speech given by the President.  The man who yelled out "You Lie!!" in the middle of the speech was Representative Joe Wilson (R)  of South Carolina, and he could be looking at censure for his failure to comply with the Rules of Decorum & Debate in the House.

However, perhaps the funniest thing about this moron calling out like that is that it will do more to bring Democrats together than that entire 45 minute speech delivered by Obama.  So, my hat's off to that man for his help in passing this legislation.  

[Arctonyx]

health care aside im glad someone had the balls to express their opinions on something. I really don't see why this outburst was so offensive. Yes the president deserves some respect but look at the british house of commons. The party leadership basically just yells at each other.

We get plenty of our own crap. MP expenses has featured very heavily recently. And although I personally like the system we have at the moment there's a complete arse running it.

[andrewclunn]

I just wanted to say, that I'm coming here from the same sort of topic thread on RichardDawkins.net and you all are SO MUCH MORE REASONABLE and open to real discussion.  Thank you all for being awesome.  

[Whitney]

Second, Obama stated clearly that no illegal immigrants would be covered in the new plan.  At this point a Republican yelled out "YOU LIE!" to the boos of the Dems.  To my thinking, if we don't cover illegals, they will continue to get uninsured, emergency room treatment that will ultimately fall on taxpayer shoulders.  Could this be what the Republican was angry about?  I'm not suggesting we cover illegal immigrants; I generally lean toward deportation in that arena.

I read a fact check link I found on CNN about illegal immigrants and coverage today.  It said that the bill clearly does not allow people who are not legally in the country to benefit from coverage even if they have a legal family member.  It also noted that even if it did allow them coverage, it would be a mute issue since, as you stated above, illegal immigrants go to the ER when they need medical care and the ER bill gets picked up by the government and hospitals which in turn costs us all money.  The guy who yelled out "you lie" not only was acting inappropriately but was also incorrect...making himself a liar (assuming he had bothered checking his own facts before acting out).  He has issued an apology to the White House and many people (including Republicans) are calling for him to issue a public apology.

heres that fact check link: http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/20 ... an-update/

I was flipping through radio stations today and came across a Christian talk radio show...which I had paused on because they were talking about the guy who yelled out You Lie (Rep Wilson?).  The guy who had called in was saying that if Obama were not black that there wouldn't be as much hostility towards him.  He added that he did not think that a representative would have been disrespectful enough to yell out "you lie" if it had been any other president giving the same speech to Congress.  The host didn't think there was a race issue and just thought Obama was lying (which from the above link we can see is not true) and that he was being overly aggressive in his address.  I don't know if race is an issue for the rep who yelled out (I'm assuming it wasn't) but I do think that race might be why the far right has been freaking out over every little thing Obama does even if his intentions are obviously good (like the school address).

As for the bill itself, I don't really care about the details as long as they end up with a system that works in a way that makes it so no one has to worry about if they can afford a necessary doctors visit without increasingly adding to the national debt.  If it requires some start up costs, that's fine, it just should be self sustaining after it is in place.

[Will]

It's really nice to hear quality speech writing and speaking again from an American president. I really missed that during the Bush years.

There are some really good points in the proposed healthcare legislation, but I felt like I was watching theater play out. President Obama would say something that would make sense to even a monkey, and the Republicans would sit there looking like the kid that just god in trouble in 3rd grade maths for making farting noises. The Democrats would stand and cheer all too often. There was even the obviously planned outburst to try and steal the news cycle. Everyone went through the motions. President Obama even tried to reach out to the Republicans by promising to take a look at malpractice suits.

Part of me wishes that President Obama stopped in the middle of his speech to read the part of the legislation that specifically says that it's not going to provide service for undocumented immigrants, just to take back the cycle. If I were president, there probably would have been a Joe Wilson shaped hole in the wall.

[Whitney]

What I really don't understand is this republican tactic of claiming someone is lying even after it has been shown otherwise.  It's like they don't bother to check the facts before they open their very loud mouths.

[LoneMateria]

What I really don't understand is this republican tactic of claiming someone is lying even after it has been shown otherwise.  It's like they don't bother to check the facts before they open their very loud mouths.

Um... being atheists don't we encounter this a lot?  And the majority of people who say this just happen to be right wing republicans.  It must be something from the innerworkings of the party or a byproduct of being ignorant on a subject you are forced to participate in.

[Will]

What I really don't understand is this republican tactic of claiming someone is lying even after it has been shown otherwise.  It's like they don't bother to check the facts before they open their very loud mouths.

They expect their constituents and undecideds not to check facts. We saw under the Bush administration that if you say something loudly and often enough, people will tend to believe it. 9/11 had something to do with Iraq, Iraq has WMDs, Iraq is seeking nuclear material... all of these could be demonstrated as totally false with even a bit of research, and yet here we are in 2009 and we're still in Iraq.

[iNow]

What I really don't understand is this republican tactic of claiming someone is lying even after it has been shown otherwise.  It's like they don't bother to check the facts before they open their very loud mouths.

They expect their constituents and undecideds not to check facts. We saw under the Bush administration that if you say something loudly and often enough, people will tend to believe it. 9/11 had something to do with Iraq, Iraq has WMDs, Iraq is seeking nuclear material... all of these could be demonstrated as totally false with even a bit of research, and yet here we are in 2009 and we're still in Iraq.

Ah... Will beat me to it.  If they say it often enough, people believe it.

Further, if they confuse people enough, they win... People simply don't know what to think anymore because there is so much misinformation.