Socialist School Speech?

[andrewclunn]

Should I feel bad if I want Texas to secede to? If that actually happened, I would imagine the repubs wouldn't be winning any elections any time soon. Ironically Texas is slowly turning into a blue state.

Naw, they're going libertarian.  That way they get sex, drugs AND money.  

[skurry]

Who is this 'they?'  I don't agree that Obama should be teaching children his politcial ideology (And I don't agree with him politically or philosophically either.)

Um... he told kids to stay in school... that is neither political nor any certian ideology... it is common sense. Our country is very far behind other countries as far as education. Obama is merely saying that we need to educate our youth in order to pull ahead.

[andrewclunn]

Who is this 'they?'  I don't agree that Obama should be teaching children his politcial ideology (And I don't agree with him politically or philosophically either.)

Um... he told kids to stay in school... that is neither political nor any certian ideology... it is common sense. Our country is very far behind other countries as far as education. Obama is merely saying that we need to educate our youth in order to pull ahead.

Dude, either read the whole 6 posts I made over the past two pages or don't bother.  Taking one post out of context and assuming that I hate education is kind of lame.

[Arctonyx]

My class watched the speach today in school. I thought it was actualy somewhat interesting (average for Obama, fantastic if you compare it to the speaches Dublya gave). However, I don't think that he really understands how trivial the things we learn in school are. Just to give an example, in science last year one of the things we did is we had to study the anonomy of a bunch of different animals (and later take a test on them), and then we would disect them. Now really, just how often do you actualy need to know the different internal part of a squid? I also took algebra last year, which was very frusterating. Not because it was difficult, but because we were assigned such a large amount of work. I remember questioning how often I would need to use the types of equations we were learning, when it would be easy just to solve real world problems through problem-solving without special equations. I mean, sure if your going to become an economist or something like that, your going to want to learn algebra (I suggest it be a high-school or college level course), but why put us through litteraly hundreds of hours of work just to learn something we'll likely forget in a few years? Just to give an example, my dad is a mechanical engeneer, which is pretty darn mathy as far as jobs go, and even he says he's forgoten nearly everything he learned in calculus (ditto with my new geomotry teacher). My mom does taxes part time, and she really doesn't need to use the algebra she learned in school. It's very frusterating to see so much of school based around rote memerization, when a lot of the time the material is nearly useless in the real world.

Welcome to education! It's not really about what you learn, it's about demonstrating that you can learn it. And if they took algebra out of school how would any of the kids know if they wanted to do it later on? Algebra is very important in some jobs. But the general idea is that if you can successfully show that you can learn something, that an employer is more likely to think highly of you, not because of what you can do but because of what they can teach you to do. It doesn't really matter if you're learning irrelevant things, the fact is learning those irrelevant things is what is going to get you a decent job.

[iNow]

Who is this 'they?'  I don't agree that Obama should be teaching children his politcial ideology (And I don't agree with him politically or philosophically either.)

Um... he told kids to stay in school... that is neither political nor any certian ideology... it is common sense. Our country is very far behind other countries as far as education. Obama is merely saying that we need to educate our youth in order to pull ahead.

Dude, either read the whole 6 posts I made over the past two pages or don't bother.  Taking one post out of context and assuming that I hate education is kind of lame.

Andrew,

Can you please explain how that was out of context?  You typed those words.  Your assertion was plainly false.  When asked to support your assertion, you backed down.  You said you agreed with the right on this issue because of something in the teacher's aids and suggested classroom activities.  When informed that those activities were not created by the administration, and informed that those activities were suggested only (read: NOT REQUIRED), you still didn't bother supporting your position with anything relevant.

Also, who said anything about you "hating education?"  Do you know what a strawman fallacy is?


Seriously, what precisely do you think was "taken out of context?"  I'm just not seeing it.  All you've done is accuse Obama of sharing his political ideology with children (which he did not do) and say that you agree with the right that the materials were inappropriate (without supporting why).  I'd say Skurry was a bit too nice to you, and gave you far too much credit, but that's just me.

[andrewclunn]

He was implying that I thought that Obama's speech was propaganda.  I never made that claim.  I said I had issues with the original per-K / grades chool lesson plan.

[iNow]

He was implying that I thought that Obama's speech was propaganda.  I never made that claim.

Okay, I must be daft, as I'm still not seeing it.  All he did was quote you and respond.  He didn't imply anything whatsoever.  He did not suggest you thought Obama's speech was propaganda... Your own post did.

Here... This is what you said:

I don't agree that Obama should be teaching children his politcial ideology

Sure looks like you thought Obama's speech was propaganda.  

I said I had issues with the original per-K / grades chool lesson plan.

I know, and you have yet to explain why.  I presume you are continuing to struggle separating your contributions to RD.net from your contributions here at HAF.

[andrewclunn]

Here... This is what you said:

I don't agree that Obama should be teaching children his politcial ideology

Sure looks like you thought Obama's speech was propaganda.   :brick:

I said I had issues with the original per-K / grades school lesson plan.

I know, and you have yet to explain why.

I explained that I was no longer able to find the original lesson plan online, as they have changed it to the new plan at the source I originally saw it at.  I spent 10 minutes looking for it and then gave up because it didn't seem like it was that important.

[iNow]

Here... This is what you said:

I don't agree that Obama should be teaching children his politcial ideology

Sure looks like you thought Obama's speech was propaganda.   :evil:
So, explain to me this, then... Since you conceded yourself that the speech was not indoctrinating, and you've conceded yourself that the speech was not propaganda, why would you bother spending time to post here that you "don't want Obama indoctrinating children?"  If you know that none of what he was doing had anything whatsoever to do with indoctrination, why make the statement at all?

It's so nonsequitur as to be somewhat painful.  It's as if Obama was going to tell kids that he enjoys playing sports to relax, and you reply to such a statement saying that you don't think our president should be sharing his political ideology with children.  When others point out to you that his comment has zero to do with political ideologies, you respond saying you know, you were just saying that you don't think the president should share his political ideology with kids.  Seriously, WTF?  Methinks you've been watching the Faux News for far too long...

I said I had issues with the original per-K / grades school lesson plan.

I know, and you have yet to explain why.

I explained that I was no longer able to find the original lesson plan online, as they have changed it to the new plan at the source I originally saw it at.  I spent 10 minutes looking for it and then gave up because it didn't seem like it was that important.

Yes, but you're obviously very passionate and upset about those lesson plans.  Can you not articulate in your own words why you had a problem with them?  I mean, this really shouldn't be so hard considering the energy underlying your expressed disagreement.

[andrewclunn]

I posted here because I thought that people being concerned about what would be in his speech made sence considering the first draft of his pre-K lesson plan.  My issues were with the assertions that students should be asked what they can do to help the president and another question that implied that altruism is a moral virtue.

[Ultima22689]

I posted here because I thought that people being concerned about what would be in his speech made sence considering the first draft of his pre-K lesson plan.  My issues were with the assertions that students should be asked what they can do to help the president and another question that implied that altruism is a moral virtue.

I can see where you're coming from, I think you're worried that kids would be inclined to trust their government a bit more. My question is why is that so bad? Trusting someone and blindly listening to them without questions are two different things. this strong distrust is tearing the country apart, it's only going to get worse considering that Obama isn't even a liberal. He is a very moderate centrist. If you think Obama is a liberal in the least bit then you are just that far to the right to see that he is centrist and you have to step out of your bias for a moment and look at it. I know for a fact that i'm very far left however I step out of my bias to look at two different views and it's clear Obama is a centrist even though a lot of people I know who are as liberal as I look at Obama as a conservative when that isn't really the case. Also, no disrespect but as it was said above, You may be watching too much Fox news. Make sure to mix it up dude. I think Fox news is a load of crock but I watch FOX, MSNBC, CNN and I browse various different websites to try to build a broader view so I don't alienate the other half of the country as if they were foreigners or something.

[andrewclunn]

I couldn't go into details regarding the why without this becoming a philosophical discussion.

My media sources include:

Video
Fox
ABC
YouTube

Audio
Skeptoid
The Skeptic's Guide to the Universe
Stuff You Should Know
This American Life
PRI's To The Best of Our Knowledge

Written
The Interwebz
Lots of freaking books (not normal books, but the freaken kind.)

[iNow]

I posted here because I thought that people being concerned about what would be in his speech made sence considering the first draft of his pre-K lesson plan.  My issues were with the assertions that students should be asked what they can do to help the president

Interesting how you've truncated the actual question, which asked students how they "can help the president to achieve his goal of getting more students to graduate."  Fascinating.

and another question that implied that altruism is a moral virtue.

A question which "implied" that altruism is a moral virtue?  A question which you cannot even cite?  Give me a break.  What is wrong with encouraging altruistic behavior? That's what all of the outrage was over?  Pull-eez.

[Kylyssa]

I posted here because I thought that people being concerned about what would be in his speech made sence considering the first draft of his pre-K lesson plan.  My issues were with the assertions that students should be asked what they can do to help the president and another question that implied that altruism is a moral virtue.

I'm assuming you are a theist of some sort as I've seen very few atheists against altruism.  You keep suggesting altruism is bad.  Altruism is a subset of empathy.  Empathy (not the Bible or the Koran) is the origin of morality.  Altruism is a good thing for our species.  It's basically helping your fellow man.  I don't see why people are so against thinking of how their actions might impact others.  

I'm just a godless heathen but I think that it's important to teach children to be conscious of others.  It's important to teach them empathy and love of their fellow man.  It's a shame that much current religious teachings are against empathy, altruism, and love of fellow man.  I think it's the basic fear that if human beings are loving toward each other and help each other in difficult times they'll find hope without needing a belief in God.  When people are kept without much possibility of love, acceptance, and hope in this life the only thing many can do is fantasize about an afterlife where things are just, life is wonderful for good people.  

It just wouldn't do for people to give of themselves in the here and now.  We've seen it in effect in other countries - people become healthier and happier and they turn away from religion.

I don't see any changes in the lesson plans that are online.  Just like the health care reform paperwork didn't change to get rid of a section on death panels once the neo-cons got freaked, the lesson plans didn't change.  Or was there some subliminal message in the "originals" perhaps in white letters on white?

You had an impression of what the lesson plans included and upon re-examination of the plans their wording doesn't match your impression.  It happens to everyone.  You get all emotional about something and words take on different meanings.  Then you paraphrase them in your memory, tinged with those emotions.  Later, when you are cool headed, you no longer interpret the words the same way.  The words haven't changed, you have.

[andrewclunn]

Interesting how you've truncated the actual question, which asked students how they "can help the president to achieve his goal of getting more students to graduate."  Fascinating.

So you have a link to the document?  Would you share it?  because that's the whole reason that...

A question which you cannot even cite?

That is true.  But I've already said that, yet you feel the need to make me appear like I'm being deceptive even though you are the one who specifically asked me to give my reasoning even if I could not directly site the lesson plan!

What is wrong with encouraging altruistic behavior?

Look under my my Avatar picture.  It says "Objectivist.'  Do you know what that means?  If you did you wouldn't need to ask that.  The fact that you seem bent on using manipulative word play to discredit me, makes me think that you're missing the 'happy' part of "Happy Atheist."