Socialist School Speech?

[Arctonyx]

Who is this 'they?'  I don't agree that Obama should be teaching children his politcial ideology (And I don't agree with him politically or philosophically either.)  So I must be one of those 'they.'  If you're going to judge any position by its representation on television media (especially in the US), then your view of political debates will be that of the KKK and "The Moral Majority" vs. unemployed hippies and Code Pink.

I was talking about Fox and the people who rallied against this because it was encouraging a 'hitler-youth'. I agree with you, I personally don't like Obama's stances on a lot of issues, and don't think that any political leader should be allowed to make statements to those in school. But the point is that although there is a rational debate to be had about whether it is correct for a political leader to make statements to kids, it's not going to take place, because the zealous right wingers have taken it upon themselves to drown out any hope of a rational debate. And instead scream and shout about socialism and hitler youth, this is like the health care debate instead of:

Hmm, I can see that there could be a problem with this part of your idea, how do think we can improve it?

The US public got:

OMFG, you socialist nazi! Obamacare is only going to fund abortions and turn you all into homosexuals!

OK, I may have put a little more extreme emphasis on that last sentence but it's similar. Instead of discussing the issues all the public is hearing about is some nuts who think that Obama want's to turn kids into the Hitler-youth, so there is no chance for any kind of rational debate over the subject.

[curiosityandthecat]

I think that perhaps one of the funniest things about this whole issue (or, perhaps the most illuminating of these peoples ignorance) is the fact that the public school system in the United States is a socialist system (as are our public highways, our water treatment plants and distribution, etc.).

I was thinking that, myself.

People. Are. Stupid.

I'm actually so annoyed at conservatives getting angry at a "stay in school" speech that I can't even form a coherent thought. I'm actually pissed off. What's wrong with valuing education? Why would anyone--anyone--be upset over that message? What this is is a matter of the republicans and right wingers whining from the back seat now that they're not driving the car any longer. The ignorance is palpable. I honestly just want to roll up some newspaper, hit them on their noses, and say, "NO! BAD CONSERVATIVE! BAD!"

[andrewclunn]

Who is this 'they?'  I don't agree that Obama should be teaching children his politcial ideology (And I don't agree with him politically or philosophically either.)  So I must be one of those 'they.'  If you're going to judge any position by its representation on television media (especially in the US), then your view of political debates will be that of the KKK and "The Moral Majority" vs. unemployed hippies and Code Pink.

I was talking about Fox and the people who rallied against this because it was encouraging a 'hitler-youth'. I agree with you, I personally don't like Obama's stances on a lot of issues, and don't think that any political leader should be allowed to make statements to those in school. But the point is that although there is a rational debate to be had about whether it is correct for a political leader to make statements to kids, it's not going to take place, because the zealous right wingers have taken it upon themselves to drown out any hope of a rational debate. And instead scream and shout about socialism and hitler youth, this is like the health care debate instead of:

Hmm, I can see that there could be a problem with this part of your idea, how do think we can improve it?

The US public got:

OMFG, you socialist nazi! Obamacare is only going to fund abortions and turn you all into homosexuals!

OK, I may have put a little more extreme emphasis on that last sentence but it's similar. Instead of discussing the issues all the public is hearing about is some nuts who think that Obama want's to turn kids into the Hitler-youth, so there is no chance for any kind of rational debate over the subject.

No! NO! NO!  I've been to some of those anti-Obamacare rallies.  There are some nut jobs there, but there are also many rational people with well thought out opinions.  The thing is though, that you never see that from any TV news source outside of Fox.  Yes there are wackos on Fox, and there are wackos on the right in general, but any media sources on the left over-play their numbers and pretend that THEY are the mainstream right.  It's an ad hominem!  Here are two interviews of Peter Schiff to demonstrate what I mean.

[youtube:3mpwedj7]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Er8llKAbjwQ[/youtube:3mpwedj7]

[youtube:3mpwedj7]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJxkFVoYp5o[/youtube:3mpwedj7]

The left attacks Fox News so strongly because they don't want people watching it at all.  Because in order to get an accurate view of reality you need to pull your information from a variety of sources and then think about them critically, and the only way to keep intelligent people indoctrinated is to keep them ignorant of valid differing opinions.  I'm not a Fox News loyalist, but within the secular community I meet a lot more left-wing indoctrinated people than I do right-wing.

[iNow]

You need to look at each issue individually, and not get suckered in by any kind of heuristic that thinks that there are only two positions on an issue, or that one side is more reasonable than the other.

I did look at this issue individually, and I did not get suckered into any sort of heuristic where only two positions from which to choose were available.  Thanks, though.

I found the intensity of the reaction unfounded and silly.  The classroom exercises were optional, and they were not even written/created by the administration.  They were written BY teachers FOR teachers.  The speech itself had zero political message, and Obama is not the first president to go into a classroom.  On every single front the people who were enraged by this are wrong and misguided.  It's that simple.

I don't agree that Obama should be teaching children his politcial ideology...

Again, Andrew... That is simply not what happened.  Obama taught these children no such thing, so your assertions are without merit.  I seriously doubt that anybody here disagrees with you that Obama and other government officials should avoid sharing their politics with school children.  That's not what this issue is about, however, so that's one great big red herring coming from you.  Obama did not teach children his political ideology, unless perhaps you are equating the values of effort, hard work, and responsibility with a political ideology or agenda.


If you don't believe me, then watch it for yourself:

[youtube:3qbm9rls]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZZ6GrzWkw0[/youtube:3qbm9rls]



Btw... all of the talk above about Fox news and healthcare are also red herrings which have zero to do with the topic at hand.

[andrewclunn]

This speech is squeaky clean, and I never criticized the speech (obviously the criticism came before he gave it.)  I criticizes the lesson plan.  Unfortunately, Now that I've located the pdfs of the lesson plans online, only the altered ones that were made AFTER the criticism are available.  Now it's all about personal responsibility (Which is fine) but before it had hints of altruism as morality.  Here's the links to the new pdf lesson planspreK grade school / junior high and highschool.  I'm going to try and find the older versions to show you what I mean.

[iNow]

Re: The lesson plan... Written BY teachers FOR teachers.  Further, they were optional.  Case closed.

[andrewclunn]

Re: The lesson plan... Written BY teachers FOR teachers.  Further, they were optional.  Case closed.

First, since when does written by teachers for teachers mean anything?  Secondly, is it the parents or the students making the choice of whether to use them or not?  No?  then how does that matter?

[andrewclunn]

Let me be clear on this, because unless you read my comments from the first page through this might not be clear.  I'm saying that the wording of the original lesson plan for pre-K and gradeshool children had some questionable content (only to those of a different political ideology than Obama.)  Worries about the speech that they were to relate to arose.  The white house said they would post the text of the speech a few days later (giving them time to make any changes to address those concerns) and the text of the lesson plan was also changed.  The resulting speech is not offending, nor is the lesson plan.  The white house responded rationally to a legitimate concern.  Now the right-wing story is that this was a narrowly averted socialist propaganda ploy, and the left-wing story is that the right-wing is overreacting.  Being in agreement with the initial response that some of the questions from the initial lesson plan were objectionable, I am in agreement with the right on this issue, that it was good that they spoke up about this.

EDIT-
Woops.  It's not so clear that's what I meant.  Sorry.  I was simultaneously having this discussion on RichardDawkins.net and got the two threads confused.

[iNow]

I understand, but I still content that the ferocity of the response did not scale to the issue itself.  It's as if you're child spilled her milk so you decided to shoot her in the face.  The punishment doesn't fit the crime.  I have zero qualms with people expressing criticisms and trying to improve things.  What I am getting tired of is this consistent overreaction to every little thing (Obama is a secret muslim, he's not a US citizen, he's a nazi, he's a socialist, he's a marxist, he's a communist, he's a hypnotist, he's gonna kill grandma, he's some other random brain dropping from an ignorant mind...).  

At some point, we as a community... regardless of our political leanings, our ideologies, our theistic persuasions, etc.)... have to stand up collectively and say, "Enough is enough, and what you people are doing is stupid and ignorant and helps none of us.  Now, start acting like an adult, use your inside voice, try to use valid logic and solid premises, and articulate why this is a problem and how we can do it better.  Throwing feces on each other simply ain't gonna get it done."  

This behavior should be shunned, because the valid criticisms are getting lost in the noise, and mature discussion seems to have died and long been forgotten.

[andrewclunn]

I agree, but the over-reaction has not been one sided here.  Because the left was so ready to dismiss the right's contentions as fear-mongering it lead to a political propaganda arms race (as happens with so many issues these days.)  To say that the right is at fault for blowing this out of proportion is fallacious.  The entire media lives on sensationalism.  So everybody benefits (in the political punditry arena) from blowing things out of proportion.  This hype is made up, which polarizes and keeps people from seeing what the real issue is about, which is why when I say that I agree with the right on this issue, that it's such an inflammatory comment, when it really shouldn't be.

[Reginus]

My class watched the speach today in school. I thought it was actualy somewhat interesting (average for Obama, fantastic if you compare it to the speaches Dublya gave). However, I don't think that he really understands how trivial the things we learn in school are. Just to give an example, in science last year one of the things we did is we had to study the anonomy of a bunch of different animals (and later take a test on them), and then we would disect them. Now really, just how often do you actualy need to know the different internal part of a squid? I also took algebra last year, which was very frusterating. Not because it was difficult, but because we were assigned such a large amount of work. I remember questioning how often I would need to use the types of equations we were learning, when it would be easy just to solve real world problems through problem-solving without special equations. I mean, sure if your going to become an economist or something like that, your going to want to learn algebra (I suggest it be a high-school or college level course), but why put us through litteraly hundreds of hours of work just to learn something we'll likely forget in a few years? Just to give an example, my dad is a mechanical engeneer, which is pretty darn mathy as far as jobs go, and even he says he's forgoten nearly everything he learned in calculus (ditto with my new geomotry teacher). My mom does taxes part time, and she really doesn't need to use the algebra she learned in school. It's very frusterating to see so much of school based around rote memerization, when a lot of the time the material is nearly useless in the real world.

[skurry]

My two cents... I posted a blog today that reads;

Just because our president speaks directly to children does not mean he is trying to force his political views on them. He is their president! You call him a socialist for telling our children to stay in school?!

You think our president is setting up a death clause in his health care program? Even after this is debunked, the Right Wing media continues to tout this. Fox and others are using their ignorant and god fearing public to do the bidding of the corporations. People are sick! People are dieing! Pro-Life? How about some freaking health care for the poor!

All you are doing is alienating the Republican party further and further from the rest of America. Anyone with any sense would see through your lies. It doesn't matter how loud you scream it or how often, it is still a lie.

I support Texas succeeding from the Union. The Red States do not represent the opinions of most Americans and are holding us back from moving forward, growing, and getting back on our feet.

I am starting to think that if Obama said "I think murder is wrong.", that the Republicans would scream and yell that he has some ulterior motive. Just because he's a Democrat, or perhaps because he is black, you have to disagree with him.

You make me sick.

[iNow]

I think you meant that you support Texas seceding.  

[skurry]

I think you meant that you support Texas seceding.   :hmm:

[Ultima22689]

Should I feel bad if I want Texas to secede to? If that actually happened, I would imagine the repubs wouldn't be winning any elections any time soon. Ironically Texas is slowly turning into a blue state.