Pay respect to the dead or is it the best time to kick them?

[Dragon_Of_Heavon]

Maybe this should be another thread. Should we pay respect to someone when they're dead, or is that when it's best to speak poorly of them since they can no longer be hurt, but also cannot defend themselves?

I am happy to oblige CuriosityandtheCat. Have you ever heard the saying that a funeral is for the living not the dead? I think that this statement holds true. The dead are dead. It there for does not matter to them specifically, this is true. However the problem is that no matter how bad a person is there is still a reason not to pour bilge onto a corpse. (extreme exceptions are Hitler and his ilk, in which there is a historical and philosophical point all its own) The reason is that there is always at least some one who will think of the person. Whether or not the person was good or bad, evil or saintly, it matters little in the realm of decorum. Even if a person was an absolute walking disparity among humanity, it does not make it alright to damage their memory any more than they did themselves. Does this mean you have to save their memory from the depths of oblivion? No absolutely not, by all means let their funeral be unattended, allow their grave to become ruined by weeds and ivy, allow for their box of ashes to sit in cardboard box in a basement collecting mold and mildew. Bottom line it does not matter what you do specifically to the dead as they are in fact dead. However it can matter very much to the living. It is best to keep in mind that when we die the only thing that will be left is the history of our accomplishments and a memory that will die with those who knew us. It is therefor probably best to respect the dead, as whether good or bad, they were human as are we all.

[thiolsulfate]

For the sake of those who mourn the passing, I'm of the opinion that, at the very least, we should not speak poorly of the dead in the presence of those who mourn.

In private, however, away from those still emotionally vulnerable, have at it.

[Tom62]

I'm pretty sure that there were people who mourned Hitler's death. "Evil" people are not excluded from being mourned. For example, there are still millions of people who still think that Stalin, Mao, Mother Theresa are as holy as Jesus. I'm not a kind of person who would praise a dead person at a funeral, if that person didn't deserve it. But I would also not speak poorly of the dead in the present of those who mourn.

[curiosityandthecat]

I'm going to go with thiol and Tom: no need to add insult to injury around those who are mourning, even if the dead guy's a douche.

Er, was.

I think the bigger question is is it morally permissible to badmouth someone after they've died in a way that you would not have done had they still been alive?

[thiolsulfate]

[...]

I think the bigger question is is it morally permissible to badmouth someone after they've died in a way that you would not have done had they still been alive?

In that case, no. Not because it's more bad because they are dead, but because one should have had the courage to say those things while they were alive.

[Dragon_Of_Heavon]

So basically we are all in agreement that trashing the dead is wrong?

[AlP]

I'm not in agreement with that. The truth or likelihood of a statement or argument does not for the most part depend on whether a person concerned is alive. An exception would be "Bob is alive". If you're talking about "trashing" though, I take that to mean you're talking about rhetorical devices. Well I would shy away from any rhetorical device described as "trashing" in general so no opinion on that point.

[Sophus]

"Trash" me all you want when I'm dead. I won't care - I'll be dead!  

[thiolsulfate]

I was thinking about this for a few days and something came up.

About a year ago my ex-girlfriend's brother committed suicide. Her parents didn't like talking about it with her and short of them, I'm still one of the few people she's opened up to so she came to me wanting to talk about his suicide.

(He was in residency in medical school and lost track of a patient's file, received a warning, and was sent back to the start of the residency program. He made the exact same mistake again and was thrown out of residency. Two months later he overdosed himself on aspirin.)

She asked me about what I thought about him and his suicide and I warned her that she would not like any of the things that were going to come out of my mouth. She pressed, I unleashed.

I told her that her brother had wasted his life, he threw everything away. Instead of doing what any other reasonable person would do and apply for another residency program, he killed himself. He wasn't dying of some wasting disease; he wasn't in wretched pain, bound to a bed, waiting to die; he just felt sorry for himself and killed himself to stop feeling sorry. I told her that he was weak in the face of adversity. I told her that he had every reason to still live, I told her that his life was still ahead of him, I told her that I cared fuck all that he had killed himself and if he did not care enough about his life, I did not care either.

Unchecked for a moment I said, "I'm glad he's dead. If he didn't feel his life was worth living, I don't feel so either. I'm sorry for the future doctors whose places he wasted in two rounds of residency."

She started crying and I told her I was sorry. I did not, however, take my words back because they were honest, they expressed how I felt and how I still feel about him.

[-43-]

Dead is dead, they don't care, why should you?
(Ted Kennedy, up yours!)

[skurry]

In high school and shortly after a lot of my friends had issues with heroin. I made it clear that I would wash my hands of ANY of my friends if they touched the stuff. I had a few close friends experiment with it and deliberately hide it from me, when I found out it had been months and they weren't doing it anymore.

However my best gal friend got hooked on it and after a few months she was a waste. I caught her breaking into my friend's house to steal his PlayStation to sell for drugs and ended up in a high speed chase to try and get it back (the cops weren't very reliable). To continue, she had gone from best friend to loser wench.

A few weeks went buy and I went with a friend to meet up with his brother to purchase some herbs. It turned out she was in the hotel room with him and when she saw me she threw the hotel phone at me. I just looked at her and said; "If you don't quit this shit you're going to f-ing die!" A week later she was dead. She overdosed in a Jack-N-The-Box bathroom, classy.

All of my friends went to the funeral. I did not. I was yelled at by everyone for that. I told them I warned her, and I didn't agree with how she died, as far as I was concerned she died a long time ago and I had already paid my respects. I got slapped by one chick for that comment.

So... meh, it depends. If people are jerks, don't glorify them after they die.

[Miss Anthrope]

"Trash" me all you want when I'm dead. I won't care - I'll be dead!  

Ditto.

As for as my personal conduct, I think it's OK to talk badly about someone you dont like after they're dead (though perhaps a bit cowardly if you're not willing to tell them to their face when they're alive), but I would draw the line at saying certain things around the person's family and other loved ones.

[LoneMateria]

Come on now you always talk shit after the service when everyone gets together and drinks.  You can always blame it on the booze ^_^.  You can always fake apologize the next day. "Sorry Janet I didn't mean to call your late husband a under achieving, limp dick, asshole who still owes me money.  He'd forgive me but sadly that bitch is still dead with my $20.  It was the booze talking you know that just like you know he couldn't get it up."
I don't know if that would go over well but hes dead ... fuck him.  I expect no better treatment when i'm dead ^_^

[jbeukema]

I refuse to respect Hitler just because he's dead

[jbeukema]

[...]

I think the bigger question is is it morally permissible to badmouth someone after they've died in a way that you would not have done had they still been alive?

In that case, no. Not because it's more bad because they are dead, but because one should have had the courage to say those things while they were alive.

What if you've been saying it the whole time?