Why debunk?

[rlrose328]

Ooooo... I got a "hear hear" but no anima-graphic?  <pout>

 :yay:

And I will willingly and gleefully take the blame for this one.  

[Godschild]

PipeBox you had a lot to say I will need to take some time to think through what you've written.In the meantime if you would tell me what you believe is blasphamy of the Holy Spirit.Ask your friend what he believes blasphamy of the Holy Spirit means,I believe this is the root that needs to be dug up and examined.I also think the biggest problem that people have with what's written in the Bible is this,that God being creator of all the universe says He's omnipotent,omnipresent and omniscient and assuming all this is true then our minds can not even conceive His abilities,thoughts,ways and so forth and so on.When reading scripture one must try to understand it from Gods point of view if that is possible.I will get back to you about the other things you've written.

[PipeBox]

I've been told the only way to blasphmeme the Holy Spirit is to deny it your whole life, but this stretches credulity.  Blasphemy is normally taken to mean to speaking ill of something considered holy.  It's pretty hard to blaspheme anything without speaking and with no one to hear it, normally, but here enters our dilemma.  If a Christian even hates someone, they have committed murder, and if they lust, they have committed adultery.  One need not commit actual wrongdoing to sin, as it were, though you may call either thought crime "actual wrongdoing".  Compound this with the fact that the Christian believes God is always listening.  Thinking something like "The Holy Spirit is stupid," might count as no less than committing blasphemy of it directly to God.  And that's scary as hell to any Christian that thinks a stray thought could deny them grace, when that grace is the only place their comfort lies.  It is so much worse, then, that it also promises hell.  Try not thinking of a polar bear sometime.  Trying not to think of something is generally a futile effort.  Try not to think of blasphemies and throughout the day you'll have near fully-constructed sentences pop into your head, where only making a lot of mental noise and dropping into fearful reflex will stop your brain from completing the thought.

I once lived like this, and he has for years, though he's only started talking to me about it recently.  He didn't know anyone else dealt with the same BS.  What assurance can you offer him that he is safe?  A liberal interpretation of the Bible does little to ease the possibility of the interpretation being wrong.  He believes his soul is in jeopardy.  I don't believe mine is anymore.  It seems ridiculous.  If it's the truth, God is a strange, capricious, vain thing and I am well and truly screwed.  But everyone is in that boat.  Everyone pisses off some possible conception of a god, so the only thing Christianity has backing its scare tale?  Popularity, and in the potential apostate's case, prior knowledge of the whole of the threatening mythos.

I'll be happy to hear your further thoughts on the matter.

[Whitney]

:/

[Godschild]

PipeBox sorry I have not gotten back with you about your friend things have been real busy and still are.I do have the verses you asked for but you have stated that you would not have your friend return to the Bible.So what good can come from giving you the verses.If you are still interested please reply.

[PipeBox]

Sorry to sound like an ass, but just post them.  Obviously the reason I didn't send him to the Bible is because I have a poor opinion of it and because I don't recall or may have never been aware of the verses you would post.  You're up against my understanding of the Bible, not my ego, and not my reasoning, because if my understanding is solid you don't have comfort for him that he hasn't already visited, and as I said, I would not lightly endorse the same book that pushes the damnation he's afraid of.   You only have my thanks to gain by posting, and at the worst, you don't stand to lose anything but the time it takes you to push the keys.

[Godschild]

You know what the funniest part of it all is? Strip a little verse about blasphemy of the Holy Spirit out of the Bible, and I doubt he'd have a single qualm with it today. And I'd just let him be. Whoever thought it was a good idea to put that in, be it God or some unnamed author, was a fool. It makes God a petty character who can't stand having one aspect of himself called names. It's good for nothing but scaring Christians, presumably into submission, but apparently it's not even good for that, because I know of one that would rather doubt than live a life of a sick worry.

I believe the first thing to do is not to take a verse out of its context.Matthew 12:32 does not stand alone in this chapter we must start at verse 22 and read to verse 37 to find the full meaning of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.We are shown something very important about the Holy Spirit in these verses.The Holy Spirit is the power by which the Father and Son work and to reject that power is to divide God,to speak against this power is to deny God and to rebuke the power is to forsake the Son.First let's look at the Trinity and see how the Father,Son and Holy Spirit interact with each other.The Father is the operator,the Son is the administrator and the Holy Spirit is the manifestor.The primary work of the Father is to operate,then the Son administrates the operation of the Father and the Holy Spirit manifest the administration of the operation.The Holy Spirit is the connection between the Son and Father and this is one reason why the Holy Spirit is so dear to them.The Holy Spirit is very sensitive scripture tells us that He can be vexed and grieved.The Holy Spirit is the person of God who lives with those who are saved and the one who strives with the unbelieveing He has this position in the Trinity because He is so sensitive and when He is blasphemied it hurts Him deeply.The Father and Son are very protective of the Holy Spirit so this is why there is no forgiveness when one blasphemes the Holy Spirit.Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is a willful act it is not an idle thought.Now to the verses and I'm not going to type them out I know you have a Bible you can reference.

Verse 22 this is the man being healed by Jesus through the power of the Holy Spirit.
Verse 23 the people are beginning to see Jesus in a new light because of the Holy Spirits revelation to them.
Verse 24 the Pharisees blaspheme the Holy Spirit they did this willfully so they could deny Jesus and the work the Father was doing through Him by the power of the Holy Spirit.
Verses 25-27 Jesus rebukes the Pharisees telling them that a kingdom or house can not stand nor be trusted when it's divided against itself.Verses 36 and 37 apply here.
Verses 28 and 29 Jesus tells them that it does not matter what they say they can not hold back the power of the Triune God.That their willful evil thoughts can't stop what is coming.
Verse 30 this is the results of the unforgivable sin the relationship is broken forever.
Verses 31 and 32 Jesus says that the willful act of speaking out the thoughts of the heart is blasphemy,the hurt caused to the Holy Spirit that comes from the evil heart will not be tolerated by the Father or Son.God will forgive anything said about the Father and the Son.An idle thought can not be controlled God would be petty if HE were to eternally condemn one for an idle thought His love is far greater than that.
Verse 33 Jesus says don't ride the fence either chose Him or the world and let everyone know where you stand for this is not a game.
Verse 34 Jesus makes it very plain that blasphemy comes from the heart and has nothing to do with a thought that can not be controlled.
Verse 35 when you read this verse replace the word treasure with heart it gives one a clearer understanding of the verse.If you have an NIV Bible it translates the verse over to modern english very well.
Verses 36 and 37 apply to verses 25-27.

The Bible is a book of thought crimes, and whereas reality might seem a burden, after you cope with it, you never live with spite for it. You never have to worry about sinning against it, and death really loses its sting. Even as a Christian I used to fret and think of how horrible it would be to just die. You don't cope with that as a Christian. You try desperately to get around it.

My friend hangs on to the Bible not because it has wisdom, but because he's afraid of being damned. What does that say about your religion?

I'm not sure what you are saying all the christians I know are not afraid of dying and cope with death well because they have dealt with it through Jesus Christ.They like myself and all others I know,believers and nonbelievers alike,are afraid of how they will die that's only natural.I've seen and prayed for many who were glad to be moving on in this journey of life with Christ.

[PipeBox]

Thanks, but I was hoping for more.  I'm familiar with Mathew, to the extent I know it is the only place Jesus speaks of an unforgivable sin.  The passage promises nothing.  Rather, only your assumptions read in offer any comfort.  If I sent him to those same verses, how do you think he would interpret them?  It's great that you can read in so much meaning verse to verse, but when I read it, I just hear Jesus telling off some Pharisees, healing some folks, and getting out of there before he gets murdered for "working" on the sabbath.  While he's dominating them with his wit he mentions something unforgiveable.  The Bible mentions plenty of people who won't get into heaven, all kinds of people who have some divine retribution on the way (presumably after they die), and it even in Mathew it is suggested that a person is only forgiven 7 times for any sin, but the significance is that it's the only place where Jesus speaks of an unpardonable sin.

I've visited a few Christian sites through google, and their response to the unpardonable sin is typically "Not us, we don't have to worry about it because we're strong in Jesus!" or "No no no, here's how you actually commit the sin, so don't worry because it'd be really hard to do!" and none of their comments is there to be plainly read.  Apparently you need a "feel" for the Bible to know how it all really works, to know what Jesus would have also said if only he or his listeners had thought it was important enough.  My friend's feeling on the matter, unfortunately, is that it's rather easy to get damned.  I mean, do you think the Pharisee meant to blaspheme the Spirit?  Put yourself in his shoes for a sec.  You're well read in the scriptures, in fact, you can actually read.  Outside, some commoners, probably Jewish, are picking wheat to eat, and it's the sabbath.  Picking wheat probably isn't a huge deal, so you don't grab a rock but instead hurry outside to tell them to stop.  You recognize one of the guys as the miracle of the month who's been blowing through Judea, and with a bit of contempt you question him.  At no point do you say "Screw your Spirit," or "I blaspheme the Holy Ghost," but when you remind everyone that the pagans cast out demons, too, Jesus gives you an illogic sandwich and tells you that you're on God's shit-list.  

I don't personally think the pharisee was under demon possession at the time.  Indeed, that would only justify it not being his fault.  Let us not forget that the pharisee thought he knew God well.  Arrogance, maybe, but even you exhibit this kind of arrogance, as do I.  Let's say the "real" messiah shows up tomorrow.  Would you recognize him, or would you call him the antichrist, since you know what the Bible says well enough?  Ah, but you wouldn't expect that to happen.  Do you think the pharisees expected the messiah to be a poor guy who just rolled into town one day and started verbally bombing them?

Just by reading, it's really easy to blaspheme the Spirit, and even you say it's sensitive (though why that should be the case, I cannot surmise).  My friend has no reason to believe this, this, or even this.  He "knows" what he reads, and what he reads doesn't bode well to him.  I think it's all BS, and I tell him as much.  I mean, come on, it is BS, it doesn't read remotely like a divine book and we know it's been revised time and again.  It doesn't agree with philosophy, science, or unadultered intuition.  It doesn't agree with what you see and hear everyday.  Sometimes, it doesn't agree with itself.  It doesn't agree with reality.  It's BS.

Thanks for trying to help.  I know you wish my friend read it like you, and even I can admit he'd be better off if he did, but that isn't happening.  It's not for lack of trying, either.  Do you really think he's read more of my words than the Bible?  Which do you think he'd rather be the truth so long as he can be guaranteed that truth?  Heck, which do you think I'd prefer was true, if preference could shape the world?  It doesn't read well enough and true enough for me, and it doesn't read reassuringly to him.  It's just not a divine book.

Sorry, I'll keep trying to educate him in the sciences and philosophies, even targeting the biblical dogma for destruction so that he's then free to learn the rest on his own, no reservations.

Oh, and I never meant Christians were afraid of dying with Jesus.  You're afraid of dying without him.