Re: More Religious and Devout Young Women Have Abortions

[Heretical Rants]

Stop being.  

[Whitney]

Maybe I'll try to get through a few religious documents

Eh..I wouldn't bother unless you feel like reading them...they are very boring and are basically just a waste of time unless you want to use them to better understand the culture surrounding religion.

[Heretical Rants]

I'd rather learn more of the basics of Islam and Hinduism before I get super in-depth on Christianity...I already have a pretty good grasp of the way Christianity effects culture, having been around it all my life.

[Godschild]

It's late and I need to go,but first God said that if a man strikes a woman with child and that child suffers from that action the man is to suffer in the same way.

Post the verse, Godschild, the one I know deals with the man just having to give away some money for the other man's property loss. Remember, we are not ignorant of the Bible. :| '

Sorry curio I believe this puts a big hole in your theory.

[Whitney]

Exodus 21:22-25 (Contemporary English Version)

22Suppose a pregnant woman suffers a miscarriage [a] as the result of an injury caused by someone who is fighting. If she isn't badly hurt, the one who injured her must pay whatever fine her husband demands and the judges approve. 23But if she is seriously injured, the payment will be life for life, 24eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25burn for burn, cut for cut, and bruise for bruise.

Footnotes:

   1. Exodus 21:22 suffers a miscarriage: Or " gives birth before her time."
Exodus 21:22-25 (Contemporary English Version)

Exodus 21:22-25 (New International Version)

 22 "If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely [a] but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows. 23 But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

Footnotes:

   1. Exodus 21:22 Or she has a miscarriage

The verses are very obviously talking about harm to the woman and don't put any life value on the fetus...just a price.  Life for life, tooth for tooth, etc is related to harm done to the woman.

I'm sorry, but you are they one trying to pull the verse out of context in order to support your own views.  I frankly wouldn't care if it meant what you want it to mean...it just doesn't.

[curiosityandthecat]

Sorry curio I believe this puts a big hole in your theory.

That's one theory I love to see proved wrong. It's sadly correct, more often than not.

[Godschild]

Exodus 21:22-25 (Contemporary English Version)

22Suppose a pregnant woman suffers a miscarriage [a] as the result of an injury caused by someone who is fighting. If she isn't badly hurt, the one who injured her must pay whatever fine her husband demands and the judges approve. 23But if she is seriously injured, the payment will be life for life, 24eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25burn for burn, cut for cut, and bruise for bruise.

Footnotes:

1. Exodus 21:22 suffers a miscarriage: Or " gives birth before her time."
Exodus 21:22-25 (Contemporary English Version)

Exodus 21:22-25 (New International Version)

22 "If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely [a] but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows. 23 But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

Footnotes:

1. Exodus 21:22 Or she has a miscarriage

The verses are very obviously talking about harm to the woman and don't put any life value on the fetus...just a price. Life for life, tooth for tooth, etc is related to harm done to the woman.

I'm sorry, but you are they one trying to pull the verse out of context in order to support your own views. I frankly wouldn't care if it meant what you want it to mean...it just doesn't.

So your telling me if a man was to step on a pregnant womans foot or hit her hand,black her eye that she would miscarriage.I know you do not believe in any gods but if you did believe in the God of the Bible how could you possible believe He would not value what He created.I'll need to do some reading but I will find you the punishment for accidental harm to adults.

[PipeBox]

Eh, if the god you believe in existed, he'd very much care (or as much as you can without getting directly involved), so I can see where you're coming from.  It's written between the lines for you.  It isn't, however, written in a book of Judean law and history revolving around YHWH the Lawman.  You can add whatever significance you want, whatever compatible ritual or ideals you feel like, but many of them aren't in the Bible.  There's a good reason I was more or less a red letter Christian.  The OT is nuts in some places, and the whole thing was written by men.  At the time, I didn't realize none of the gospel writers were quoting Jesus directly, but at least Jesus seems relatively "on the level".  If you listen to just Jesus, you can kind of turn it into a passable religion.  The rest of the Bible recommends the bitter water for abortion (poisoning the fetus to force a miscarriage, this being advocated for the adultress), smashing the heads of your enemy's children on the rocks, and it can be wonderfully vague at the best of times (even the NT has a passage about people doing things so bad they can't be written down, which is of exactly zero usefulness to us).  Minus the introduction of Hell, and stealing some dude's donkey, Jesus was an OK guy.  Too bad he needed to springboard off that crazy Judean myth to get going.  Now the same stuff that backs his credulity as the Son of God also backs talking animals and a god that kills all the first born children of Egypt and murders every last person on the planet by drowning them.  Human sacrifices, ritualistic mutilation, and some of the most indecent acts to ever be recorded as religious myth reside in the Bible.  Now, if Jesus hadn't needed that baggage, the religion would've been better off today.  Not that he could forgo it without sounding even less likely to be a savior of anyone for any reason.  He'd be more like the middle eastern Buddha.  Anyway, does the Bible really read as though it was divinely inspired to you?

Sorry 'bout the rant, everyone.

[Whitney]

So your telling me if a man was to step on a pregnant womans foot or hit her hand,black her eye that she would miscarriage.

Godschild, what that verse is clearly saying is that if a man causes a woman to misscarry that he will pay the woman's husband a fine.  Then it goes on to say that if further damage is caused to the woman; that the eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth rule would be enacted.  

I know you do not believe in any gods but if you did believe in the God of the Bible how could you possible believe He would not value what He created.I'll need to do some reading but I will find you the punishment for accidental harm to adults.

It doesn't matter what you think the Bible should say....it matters what it does say.  You can't self project your own emotions into a text if you want to claim that text worthy of providing guidance to others.  This verse was about harm to pregnant woman as a result of two men having a fight...I don't recall there being punishments for truly accidental harm (that wouldn't be very fair either).  Intentional or careless harm (such as from a fight) falls under they eye for an eye rule; the verse you cited was to explain how to handle what would happen if that bystander who unwilling was included in the fight just happened to be pregnant and  the hit she received caused a miscarriage or pre-mature labor.

In other words...you are still wrong.

[Kylyssa]

So, back to religious women and girls having more abortions than non-religious women and girls per capita.

I was quick to say that religious women have more abortions because they feel they are forgiven no matter their sin.  I don't really think that's the reason, though.  I think that since poverty and ignorance tend to go hand in hand with religion that fact holds some weight.  

But religion also actively seeks to prevent young women from learning about sex so they can't make informed decisions not to have sex.  Rather than risk being found out as sexual beings, religious young women are less likely to use birth control.  Patriarchal religions have an effect on self-esteem as well leaving young women with lower self-esteem and possibly a higher likelihood of having unprotected sex.

Additionally, conservative Christians discourage the study of science so those conservative Christian women who do use birth control probably have less understanding of how it works and thus less chance of using it effectively.  Abstinence only education teaches them that condoms don't work making young people less likely to use them - I mean, if you think they are useless, why would you use them anyway?  Abstinence only education also teaches that if you've had sex you are a dirty whore - again with the self-esteem - oy!  

Then, if a conservative Christian girl gets pregnant she will more often want to conceal the fact than a a girl raised to feel less ashamed of her sexuality.  Some conservative Christian parents also put pressure on their children to have abortions to hide the evidence of their sexual activity.  

Funny thing is that all of the women I know who have chosen to keep their unplanned pregnancies are pro-choice.