Is feminISM a brainwashing similar to ChristianISM?

[Tanker]

This one isn't as simple as custody. I've dated a lot of women in my life, and I can't really think of one that could physically overpower me without a weapon. Even the one that took Krav Maga. Mind you, they could certainly strike me, but it wouldn't be as devastating as me striking them. And, frankly, men are much, much more likely to be involved in physical altercations, statistically.

 I know alot of men won't hit a women even in self defense and many won't admit that they are the abused. I know in the military the man is always removed from the home even when both parties agree it was only the woman being abusive. I've had friends when I was in who were forced to leave thier homes because of abusive wives. In one case in particular he got in trouble for returning because she was abusive to the kids and he would take the abuse so they wouldn't have to. He was worried that she was hurting them in his absence, (he was right) he was arested for returning she stayed with the kids.

It seems that some women like to be equal except when they can gain more from being treated as a woman. I fully agree that women have and in many cases continue to get the short end of the stick but it seems that if women want true equality they should stop playing or alowing others to play the system with reverse sexism. Such as the cases of women getting custudy of the kids when the father would be a much more nurturing and stable envirnment. Just because men and women both allow swhat are actually sexist views that women make better parents. I can't for the life of me remenber one case of female based equal rights groups fight against this type of sexism. I do remeber on case a few years back of a father with a steady job and home kids being given to his ex who was both mentaly unstable had no job and at one point of her custodianship was living under a bridge with the kids. Despite repeated court cases the mother kept getting custody. It would seem to me the only reason was she was a women and had to be a better parent, despite contrary evidence, because of it.

Do feminists want to be the equals of men or have all the same rights of men as well as the sexist and unreasonable positions that actually give women an advantage over men. It seems to me the sexes should be equal not just equal but with favorable exceptions for one over the other. (which isen't eqality anyway)

[Wendy]

This one isn't as simple as custody. I've dated a lot of women in my life, and I can't really think of one that could physically overpower me without a weapon. Even the one that took Krav Maga. Mind you, they could certainly strike me, but it wouldn't be as devastating as me striking them. And, frankly, men are much, much more likely to be involved in physical altercations, statistically.

 I know alot of men won't hit a women even in self defense and many won't admit that they are the abused. I know in the military the man is always removed from the home even when both parties agree it was only the woman being abusive. I've had friends when I was in who were forced to leave thier homes because of abusive wives. In one case in particular he got in trouble for returning because she was abusive to the kids and he would take the abuse so they wouldn't have to. He was worried that she was hurting them in his absence, (he was right) he was arested for returning she stayed with the kids.

It seems that some women like to be equal except when they can gain more from being treated as a woman. I fully agree that women have and in many cases continue to get the short end of the stick but it seems that if women want true equality they should stop playing or alowing others to play the system with reverse sexism. Such as the cases of women getting custudy of the kids when the father would be a much more nurturing and stable envirnment. Just because men and women both allow swhat are actually sexist views that women make better parents. I can't for the life of me remenber one case of female based equal rights groups fight against this type of sexism. I do remeber on case a few years back of a father with a steady job and home kids being given to his ex who was both mentaly unstable had no job and at one point of her custodianship was living under a bridge with the kids. Despite repeated court cases the mother kept getting custody. It would seem to me the only reason was she was a women and had to be a better parent, despite contrary evidence, because of it.

Do feminists want to be the equals of men or have all the same rights of men as well as the sexist and unreasonable positions that actually give women an advantage over men. It seems to me the sexes should be equal not just equal but with favorable exceptions for one over the other. (which isen't eqality anyway)

I'm so glad you said "some women" because I was about to go off. Your issue is not about feminism--it's about stupid women.

I consider myself a "feminist." I don't think abusing my husband or children will give me equal rights and I don't know any other women who believe that either. In fact, I agree with you. When I first moved in with my husband, his ex-wife came to our home and tried to start a fight. When we asked her to leave, she picked up our glass topped table and threw it, then calling 911 and saying she was abused. The police arrived and before any questions were asked my husband was taken to jail. Then the questions were asked. He spent the night in jail (no charges ever filed) and within 3 months my husband and I had custody of his 2 daughters.

The problem,imo, is "the system." I also believe my husband's case and the one you mention, are rare.

[Tanker]

I don't think it's just the system I believe it's also women allowing this behavior. Most white people decrie racism and many white people work in organisations to fight it which reduces the problem. (there is racism from minority races towards whites and other races and this is an issue but I'm not going to follow that tangent) If all white people ignored racism to minoriteis the civil rights movment never would have happened. Or if minorities had allowd members of thier own race to be apethetic and indiferant continuing in thier "proper roles" (think cowing down and talking like a slave sterotype) the civilrights movement never would have gotten off the ground.

While cases might exist of femminst fighting against women playing the "sex card" I know of none and dought many exist which is a shame. I believe for women to be treated as equals those helping to held them back by their own sex should be dealt with. If women want total equality mabey taking issue with women who abuse the system or fall into the damsel role to get what they want from the system should be taken care of by women, and men for that matter. Speaking for myself it's alot harder to want to help women's eqality if many women are themselves apethetic about, or downright abusing their roles.

(rereading my post I could see that it might be taken as negative, I was actually just musing and not trying to condecend)

[SSY]

[
But it's right there in the dictionary definition: feminists seek gender equality. Anything more than that and it stops being feminism. Feminism cannot be sexism. It's a semantic paradox.
We have issues with that over here, too. And I'd attribute those problems to sexism, the idea that men cannot be as good at parenting as women. It's based on old stereotypes.
This one isn't as simple as custody. I've dated a lot of women in my life, and I can't really think of one that could physically overpower me without a weapon. Even the one that took Krav Maga. Mind you, they could certainly strike me, but it wouldn't be as devastating as me striking them. And, frankly, men are much, much more likely to be involved in physical altercations, statistically.
Horribley unequal prison terms and prison conditions in the case of women
This is a simple financial issue. Less women are incarcerated, but they obviously require their own prisons, therefore they get it slightly better.
The general portrayal of men in the media, which then goes on the protect the image of women
This is a marketing issue. Check out the next electronics commercial you see, then compare it to the next food or homemaking commercial you see. Yeah, it's kinda annoying to see "stupid dad" commercials, but half of all entertainment is the sexual objectification of women, so I can't really complain.

Sorry, but I disagree with nearly everything you said.

Feminism, is defined as equal rights, but the oft left off addendum is "equal rights, for women". Have you ever seen a feminist supporting rights for men? Or for reforming a system that favors women? If it was about gender equality, it would be called gender equality, not feminism.

Yes, stereotypes about men being bad fathers, why is nothing being done about it? I thought stereotyping was supposed to be  bad thing?

Statisitcs have shown men and women are approximatley as lilley to be victims of DV, but no one gives a shit, as your attitude shows, where as if a woman is abused, there is an outcry ( quite rightly ). The fact that men suffering like this receive such short sfrift just makes the problem worse.

If a hundred men are incarcerated, and 10 women, pay 10 times more to house the men, not 5 times more, they deserve the same treatment, if womens prisons are over funded, the funds should be diverted o those more in need ( ie, the mens prisons )

No, its not a marketing issue, it is not ok to portray all men as stupid, just as it is not ok to portray all black people as stupid, even if it does sell more of your product.

[Wendy]

While cases might exist of femminst fighting against women playing the "sex card" I know of none and dought many exist which is a shame. I believe for women to be treated as equals those helping to held them back by their own sex should be dealt with. If women want total equality mabey taking issue with women who abuse the system or fall into the damsel role to get what they want from the system should be taken care of by women, and men for that matter. Speaking for myself it's alot harder to want to help women's eqality if many women are themselves apethetic about, or downright abusing their roles.

That's a very good point.

[Will]

Sorry, but I disagree with nearly everything you said.

Feminism, is defined as equal rights, but the oft left off addendum is "equal rights, for women". Have you ever seen a feminist supporting rights for men? Or for reforming a system that favors women? If it was about gender equality, it would be called gender equality, not feminism.

"Feminism" (really, an outdated term) one half of gender equality. If men want equality, we'll just have to fight for it ourselves. I'll join the movement as soon as I actually am victimized by sexism. So far, I've not experienced it in any meaningful way (other than what I post next).

Yes, stereotypes about men being bad fathers, why is nothing being done about it? I thought stereotyping was supposed to be  bad thing?

This problem is rooted in two things: the "traditional" role of the father as bread-winner, and pedophilia. The traditional role thing isn't difficult to get over, I know several stay-at-home dads. The pedophilia thing is the main problem. Have you ever taken kids to a park without a woman present? I have. They look at you like you're Jack the Ripper or Carrot Top.

Statisitcs have shown men and women are approximatley as lilley to be victims of DV, but no one gives a shit, as your attitude shows, where as if a woman is abused, there is an outcry ( quite rightly ). The fact that men suffering like this receive such short sfrift just makes the problem worse.

Again, men and women on average have a large difference in physical strength. Think of the strongest woman you know and the weakest man you know, now allow them to fight in your imagination. I don't know about you, but it wasn't even a fair fight. I'm not saying women are incapable of defending themselves, but in a fight your average woman simply doesn't have the same physical capability as a man. It's just biology. We, as men, have more muscle mass and are larger.

No, its not a marketing issue, it is not ok to portray all men as stupid, just as it is not ok to portray all black people as stupid, even if it does sell more of your product.

The same commercials that show men as stupid are sexist against women in that they essentially make out the woman to only be interested in the best kind of Windex or fabric softener, so it's difficult to really say that they're somehow worse for one gender. Anyway, in more respectable media (things other than commercials and comedies), the "stupid man" thing really isn't that common.

[Kylyssa]

Think of the strongest woman you know and the weakest man you know, now allow them to fight in your imagination. I don't know about you, but it wasn't even a fair fight.

Here's my tangent.  

I know a lot of disabled people so my scenario comes out different.  One of my pals weighs about 75lbs and can't push his own wheelchair.  

Fighting dirty can make up the difference but women aren't usually raised that way.  I was, and it has saved my life a number of times.  If you are willing to take a bite out of the hand someone puts over your mouth, the balance can be changed.

***The average human bite can exert a force equal to or greater than 120 psi, only about 7 psi less than the average pit bull terrier.  The upper end on psi bite pressure for both animals is around 250 psi.

[SSY]

Will, you seem to acknowledge a lot of the problems facing men, but you seem curiously apathetic in general, or all too willing to explain it away.

Feminism, outdated term, yes, also an outdated movement.

Regarding the stereotypes, you obviously know they exist, but just don't care enough to try and restore some balance to the situation? If all men are branded as paedophiles due to the vanishingly small numbers of men who are paedophiles, surley something is wrong, and something needs to be done about it ( note, there are also female paedophiles, lest we forget a fact often ignored by writers with an agenda ). Men should not be excluded from the caring of their children, it seems on the one hand, that many women don't trust men enough to look after the children, yet those that don't are labeled deadbeats. It's as if, with the assistance of the state, that fathers are bieng margenilised to nothing more than ATM machines.

Yes, men are, on average, bigger than women. This does not make it, in any way acceptable for a woman to hit a man, and not expect an appropriate response ( a lot of men would be too sacred to fight back, knowing they would be branded as wife beaters by throngs of clucking feminists ). It is also interesting, that this disparity in brute strength often just leads women to pick up weapons, which is obviously a bad thing. What most of the MRA movement want is the acknowledgement that DV happens to men also, that there are high rates of female on male DV, and the cessation of portraying every man as a potential abuser by the so called " DV industry" along with an overhaul of police and similar procedures that automatically assume the man to be at fault in domestic incidences.

Disagree about the comercials, women are no longer portrayed as mindless homemakers, but instead as domestic goddesses who are forced to endure the ineptitude of their husbands. I agree though that the crossover into other media is limited.

Edit; note to self, don't put any fingers near kylyssa's mouth.

[Will]

Kylissa, even with fighting dirty, the odds generally aren't going to be even imho. Besides, with most men once you fight dirty they start fighting dirty. It's "guy code", deep inside our DNA. I've even experienced it. It's surreal.

Will, you seem to acknowledge a lot of the problems facing men, but you seem curiously apathetic in general, or all too willing to explain it away.

I'd be willing to fight for paternal legal equality.

Regarding the stereotypes, you obviously know they exist, but just don't care enough to try and restore some balance to the situation? If all men are branded as pedophiles due to the vanishingly small numbers of men who are pedophiles, surely something is wrong, and something needs to be done about it ( note, there are also female pedophiles, lest we forget a fact often ignored by writers with an agenda ). Men should not be excluded from the caring of their children, it seems on the one hand, that many women don't trust men enough to look after the children, yet those that don't are labeled deadbeats. It's as if, with the assistance of the state, that fathers are being marginalized to nothing more than ATM machines.

I don't think I said I didn't care. I do care about the pedophile thing, I plan on being the world's greatest dad someday. I also care about hyperbole, though. I think you're exaggerating your case, and it's doing more damage than good. There are inequalities in our society for men and women. We should absolutely do our best to get over them, but we shouldn't lose our perspective. Divorced fathers may be unfairly used as cash machines, I'll grant you that, but that's quite simply nothing compared to, say, genital mutilation. I mean if we want to compare the worst of sexism against men to the worst against women, it's nightmarishly one sided. Let's try and fix the worst stuff first regardless of gender. Once we get rid of things like rape in arranged marriage, legal murder of spouses, and being stoned to death for being raped, then we can move on to the troubles our gender face.

[SSY]

Obviously the things you mentioned are terrible, but they all happen in other, rather less developed countries. Our government ( the UK ) could stop all the injustices against men in this country in a relativly short space of time, by putting through legislature and other measures. Heck, it would even be  a start if they stopped putting through legislature and campaigns specefically against men ( read; ditch Harman, ditch her hard ). The other countries are not under the jurisdiction of us, or any other world police, and we all know how well it goes when we stick our noses into countries that don't want us.

What would you suggest they do about the backwards attitude a large part of the world holds against women? Invade all these other countries and instigate a massive program of cultural change? Does that really sound feasible? Are there any feasible means to do this? Would any of them be easy and cheap?

On the other hand, our government is in a position to help out men in this country, yet they sit back and do diddly squat, it's reprehensible. I can't help but feel you are trying to deflect the issue onto other, less relavent issues. Those countries really could do with a feminist movement, we on the other hand, need quite the reverse.

[VanReal]

Hehe, when I started reading the OP on this thread I knew that SSYwould be jumping in and onboard against the over-bearing all-powerful women.  

[Will]

Obviously the things you mentioned are terrible, but they all happen in other, rather less developed countries. Our government ( the UK ) could stop all the injustices against men in this country in a relatively short space of time, by putting through legislature and other measures. Heck, it would even be  a start if they stopped putting through legislature and campaigns specifically against men ( read; ditch Harman, ditch her hard ). The other countries are not under the jurisdiction of us, or any other world police, and we all know how well it goes when we stick our noses into countries that don't want us.

They don't get to commit atrocities just because they have their own country.

What would you suggest they do about the backwards attitude a large part of the world holds against women? Invade all these other countries and instigate a massive program of cultural change? Does that really sound feasible? Are there any feasible means to do this? Would any of them be easy and cheap?[/QUTE]
The West is bad at waging military wars, but we're experts at cultural influence. I suspect the spark to light the fire of women's rights in these places is just injecting them with of a culture of equality in the form of media.

On the other hand, our government is in a position to help out men in this country, yet they sit back and do diddly squat, it's reprehensible. I can't help but feel you are trying to deflect the issue onto other, less relevant issues. Those countries really could do with a feminist movement, we on the other hand, need quite the reverse.

Like I said, I think you're exaggerating the need for this "men's rights" movement. And I don't see it as deflecting because the thread is about femenism, or equality for women. It makes sense to reference the worst cases of ineqaulity.

[Nimelia]

I'm Norwegian and having read many of the posts in this threads, most of the participants being American, my main impression is that the situation in Norway differs a lot from the situation in the USA.

It has been rhetorically "pointed out" that there are no feminists fighting for the rights of men. At least there are feminists fighting for men's rights in Norway - I will comment on this later.
First of all, this could easily be misunderstood as feminist = woman. Men can also be feminists. I have a male friend who has declared himself feminist and he doesn't in any way see how it collides with the fact that he is a man. I'm also a feminist because it's really a human matter. To claim that feminists want more and better rights than men is so utterly absurd that I won't say much about it. If that was feminism, it would be an ideology that worked it's way backwards into the future, a vendetta against all men on behalf of the millions of women who have suffered in the past and those who are being oppressed right now. Of course, it is understandable that we would like to punish all oppressors, but feminism is not about this.

Feminism and men's rights: Men have it all, with some exceptions. When a couple got divorced earlier in Norway, the woman got custody of the children in nearly all the cases. This is not so straight forward any more. With the best interest of the child in mind, the parent is given custody thereafter.

The father-role has been altered. Legally, the father can now take a lot of time off work to be with the new-born child. The modern Norwegian father/husband cleans the house, does the laundry, collects the children from kindergarten and school and spends overall much more time with the children than earlier. Norwegian women expect that men do their 50% of the domestic work. And men often want to do this. Also, they want to be with their children, raise them, help them and so on.

[SSY]

Like I said, I think you're exaggerating the need for this "men's rights" movement. And I don't see it as deflecting because the thread is about femenism, or equality for women. It makes sense to reference the worst cases of ineqaulity.

Ok then, I'll bite, please explain to me, how the fact that some women are circumsized in africa, means men should get screwed over in the UK? What possible reason, does the circumcision of women in Africa, have to cause the horribley unequal position men find themselves in the UK? How is it relavent at all?

[Will]

Ok then, I'll bite, please explain to me, how the fact that some women are circumsized in africa, means men should get screwed over in the UK? What possible reason, does the circumcision of women in Africa, have to cause the horribley unequal position men find themselves in the UK? How is it relavent at all?

It's not horribly unequal. It's just unequal in some areas just as women are unequal in others. I freely admit that. Spousal abuse is illegal in the US and UK regardless of gender. If my girlfriend came after me with a baseball bat, I'd be well within my rights to call the police and have her arrested for assault. No inequality there. Even if the cops don't believe me, I can file for a restraining order. Bam, done.