A secular universe is more meaningful (derail)

[Dilj4Jesus]

I have to disagree. If you read Ecclesiastes the message is clear. Life is completely meaningless! The only thing that matters is to be in relationship with your creator. Any question like, "Why is there suffering?" or "Can God create a rock so big he couldn't move it?" These are irrelevant. There are angels in heaven with eyes covering their entire bodies, and after seeing all of creation all they can say is, "Holy Holy Holy!" God is unbelievable! He offers us a chance, because he loves us, to take part in his plan. I find this to be more meaningful then to think... what?

Every step I take on the sands of time fades and is seen no more. We are not important. We are the result of pure chance!?  Where is the meaning in chance? Embrace a higher calling!

This is what the Bible says.
"For I know the plans I have for you...plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future" (Jeremiah 29:11).

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[curiosityandthecat]

I have to disagree. If you read Ecclesiastes the message is clear. Life is completely meaningless! The only thing that matters is to be in relationship with your creator. Any question like, "Why is there suffering?" or "Can God create a rock so big he couldn't move it?" These are irrelevant. There are angels in heaven with eyes covering their entire bodies, and after seeing all of creation all they can say is, "Holy Holy Holy!" God is unbelievable! He offers us a chance, because he loves us, to take part in his plan. I find this to be more meaningful then to think... what?

Every step I take on the sands of time fades and is seen no more. We are not important. We are the result of pure chance!?  Where is the meaning in chance? Embrace a higher calling!

This is what the Bible says.
"For I know the plans I have for you...plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future" (Jeremiah 29:11).

You're preaching and breaking forum rules. And your arguments are terrible.

[Maverick9092]

I have to disagree. If you read Ecclesiastes the message is clear. Life is completely meaningless! The only thing that matters is to be in relationship with your creator. Any question like, "Why is there suffering?" or "Can God create a rock so big he couldn't move it?" These are irrelevant. There are angels in heaven with eyes covering their entire bodies, and after seeing all of creation all they can say is, "Holy Holy Holy!" God is unbelievable! He offers us a chance, because he loves us, to take part in his plan. I find this to be more meaningful then to think... what?

Every step I take on the sands of time fades and is seen no more. We are not important. We are the result of pure chance!?  Where is the meaning in chance? Embrace a higher calling!

This is what the Bible says.
"For I know the plans I have for you...plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future" (Jeremiah 29:11).

You're preaching and breaking forum rules. And your arguments are terrible.

Out of random curiousity, is that a pun?

[curiosityandthecat]

Out of random curiousity, is that a pun?

See? Now that's funny!  

[Dilj4Jesus]

How can you say my arguments are terrible, and then not explain further? I think that is a sign that you have no sufficient response. I would be MORE than happy to elaborate or unravel these thoughts on things you may not fully understand.

[curiosityandthecat]

How can you say my arguments are terrible, and then not explain further? I think that is a sign that you have no sufficient response. I would be MORE than happy to elaborate or unravel these thoughts on things you may not fully understand.

I'll give you one example: you're trying to convert atheists (don't deny it; that's your goal) by using THE BIBLE, which is probably the single greatest catalyst for most atheists who de-convert! I can assure you, a group of atheists is typically more familiar with that text and its history than a group of Christians. The difference being that we notice the inconsistencies, the absurdities, the atrocities and the downright idiocy found therein.

I'll say it again: you're preaching. It's against forum rules.

[Dilj4Jesus]

The Bible is historical document which has thousands of copies and records, more than Mr. Julius Ceasar can say... but since that isn't "religious" than well just overlook that fact. As a Bible scholar, I can tell you that there are many SEEMING contradictions in the Bible, but with enough study show themselves to fit perfectly. Some of the world's most treasured wisdom is hidden within that book, not to mention the entire history of the Jews. So, I believe it is not out of the question to use the Bible as a source for my ideas as.. A Christian! I am perfectly open to any discussion, but I will be quick to point out holes without delay. No logical argument can stand up to absolute truth.

[Hitsumei]

The Bible is historical document which has thousands of copies and records, more than Mr. Julius Ceasar can say... but since that isn't "religious" than well just overlook that fact. As a Bible scholar, I can tell you that there are many SEEMING contradictions in the Bible, but with enough study show themselves to fit perfectly. Some of the world's most treasured wisdom is hidden within that book, not to mention the entire history of the Jews. So, I believe it is not out of the question to use the Bible as a source for my ideas as.. A Christian! I am perfectly open to any discussion, but I will be quick to point out holes without delay. No logical argument can stand up to absolute truth.

Those thousands of copies are of the same documents, and they are by anonymous individuals which recorded oral traditions, some of which were handed down for centuries, and all of the copies vary, ranging from slightly to enormously.

Julius Ceasar almost conquered the known world of the time, and has numerous independent, and contemporaneous accounts of his existence, by well known historians spanning across several countries. Along with archeological evidence which supports the historical accounts.

Many of the biblical accounts are known to have simply not happened, or were themselves inspired by earlier fiction, like epic Babylonian, and Greek poetry. Academia certainly disagrees that it qualifies as a historical document, and for a "biblical scholar" you appear to possess less knowledge on the subject than can be procured from a twenty minute visit to Wikipedia.

What you appear to be a connoisseur of, is the swallowing of bad apologetics uncritically; hook, line and sinker.

[Ihateyoumike]

If you read Ecclesiastes the message is clear. Life is completely meaningless!

Yours maybe.

This is what the Bible says.
"For I know the plans I have for you...plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future" (Jeremiah 29:11).

Please stop preaching to us from the bible.

[Recusant]

If you read Ecclesiastes the message is clear. Life is completely meaningless!

Following you so far...

Any question...   irrelevant.

This is where you lose me.  You seem to be saying, "Don't bother trying to understand, and will you just shut up with your infernal questions!  The only answer you need to know is:  'Get down on your knees and praise the Lord!'"  This is a blatant non sequitur.

It's not an argument at all, but rather a gratuitous attempt at instruction.  Your qualifications to instruct?   None, aside from your obvious Christian affiliation.  I don't recall anyone in this thread saying, "What is the standard line of biblical balderdash on this subject?  I sure wish some helpful Jesus freak would come and spout it for me!"
 I speak only for myself, but it should come as no surprise to you that I've heard it before.   (I would guess that a large percentage of the members of this forum could say the same.)  In fact Ecclesiastes is one of the few books in your holy writ that at one time I got a kick out of for it's own sake.

Life has meaning to the extent that each of us gives it meaning.  You choose to find yours in a book of mythology, and appear to be of the opinion that every one else should do the same. You write of "treasured wisdom," which is "hidden."  I'm not sure what hidden wisdom you're talking about, but there is plenty of overt "wisdom" in the bible.  I do not treasure it and am dubious of the occult wisdom you seem to find there.   If you continue to quote verses and regurgitate dogma in lieu of actual discussion, I don't think you will get very far here.

[McQ]

The Bible is historical document which has thousands of copies and records, more than Mr. Julius Ceasar can say... but since that isn't "religious" than well just overlook that fact. As a Bible scholar, I can tell you that there are many SEEMING contradictions in the Bible, but with enough study show themselves to fit perfectly. Some of the world's most treasured wisdom is hidden within that book, not to mention the entire history of the Jews. So, I believe it is not out of the question to use the Bible as a source for my ideas as.. A Christian! I am perfectly open to any discussion, but I will be quick to point out holes without delay. No logical argument can stand up to absolute truth.

That's laughable. Thousands of copies? Try billions maybe. And a copy of something doesn't make it a valid "Historical" document. If you're a bible scholar and not a troll (and your posts have "troll" written all over them) then you would not make the false claim that the bible is a historical document. It is not.

Only seeming contradictions? I used to use this argument when I was a bible thumping christian too. I used it until I actually learned what is and is not a contradiction.

Tell me, how did Judas Iscariot die? What caused his death?

[Hitsumei]

Thousands of copies? Try billions maybe.

We have roughly six thousand copies of the new testament that predate the printing press, if I remember correctly. Although you're right that the amount of copies that existed at one time or another is assuredly much larger, but what has survived through to today is a few thousand.

Professor Bart D Ehrman gives a very good history of the new testament in his book "Misquoting Jesus". I thought that it was a very interesting read.

[Squid]

All I have to say thus far:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_method

[PipeBox]

. . . there are many SEEMING contradictions in the Bible, but with enough study show themselves to fit perfectly.

Just curious how you deal with 1 Chronicles 21 being at odds with 2 Samuel 24.  They both describe King David's Census, both give very proper context, but the number of people counted is different by an absurd margin - 300,000 men.  That aside, in 2 Samuel it was God that catalyzed the census, but it 1 Chronicles, it was Satan.  Finally, it's worth noting that taking a census irks God, and David seems to realize he's in for it before God even mentions it, but that's another issue altogether. I'm honestly surprised this error got past all the compatability rewrites and became canonized, but since it's here, and you're here, I'd like your take on it.

[McQ]

Thousands of copies? Try billions maybe.

We have roughly six thousand copies of the new testament that predate the printing press, if I remember correctly. Although you're right that the amount of copies that existed at one time or another is assuredly much larger, but what has survived through to today is a few thousand.

Professor Bart D Ehrman gives a very good history of the new testament in his book "Misquoting Jesus". I thought that it was a very interesting read.

Yeah, I know about all of the extant versions and pre-printing press copies of the various pieces of the bible. And I'm glad you mentioned it, because the OP did not mention it. He simply asserted that lots of copies seem to make it somehow valid. I wasn't going to assume he was talking about anything but "copies", as in photocopies, or printed and hand written copies.
And copies, especially the hand copied versions, are rife with errors of all kinds. They actually make a case against the bible being an accurate document today.

What is usually purposely excluded in the "thousands" of copies argument that people like to throw around are the pieces that don't jive with the current bible, in particular, the new testament. It's a huge lie of omission that has been going on since people began to piece together the scriptures. Related to this is the difference between the catholic bible and the protestant bible. Also related are the ignored apocrypha.

So much bad historical documentation, so little time to shred it all.  

Also, thank you for the lead on Prof. Ehrman's book. I'd love to read it, so I'll probably go searching for it tomorrow.