A Hard Question for Christians

[gwyn428]

The Bible is the truth, you just cannot handle the truth...

The Bible says that Damascus shouldn't even exist right now (Isaiah 17:1). I personally invite you to make a journey to the location of that "nonexistent" city and have someone take a photo of you with today's paper to prove to the world that there is no longer such thing as Damascus.

Matthew 16:27-28 says that Jesus was to make his grand second coming within the lifetime of his followers... and it NEVER happened. Do you see him sitting on his throne in the east? Nope.

So much for the Bible being the truth.

THat wheel does not really make any sense to me.....

Congratulations, you have shown the whole world what kind of brain you have.

I hope one day God will open your eyes and you will see Him, open your ears and will hear Him calling you.

Seeing and hearing something that is supposedly outside of our universe? LOLy!

[VanReal]

Lissette,

In your writing you are saying the same things that non-believers say. "You don't understand because you don't know Jesus" and "faith is not of the mind, it's of the heart and the soul."  You make our argument for us:

We do not believe in Jesus (I assume you are of the faith that Jesus is God).

I don't have a soul, just a bunch of wiring that fires signals back and forth to my brain.

Just as you can not fatham that Jesus is real and that he spiritually touches you, we can not fatham how anyone could believe that.

he Bible is a compilation of stories written by man over time for whatever social purpose it was to serve at that time.  Using it as proof of anything to a non-believer makes no sense to us because it is a work of fiction, and not really creative fiction since many of the stories have been high-jacked from other writings.

I appreciated how you tried to explain your belief and faith in your original post in this thread, but it just is not compelling or new.  That's one of the pitfalls to religion, it can't change cause it's bound to these "books" you follow so while the rest of us are exploring and learning you all are stuck with nothing but the conflicting statements in those documents.

[PipeBox]

Reading all your comments about the christian faith, I realise how little you actually know about God and His followers. That you cannot understand that 'God is omniscient; he knows ALL, including the future' is a very simple thing to explain for a Christian. well.... it should be. (for not all who call themselves Christians, are real followers of Christ)

Are we creating a new version of Christian, because I'm kinda taking your word that you are one as equally as every other Christians.  I kinda have to when you guys disagree on how to be Christians in the first place.

Does a vessel understand his maker? Does a computer understand human minds. No, a computer cannot understand a human being, because it was made by a human being. You do not understand God, because you are just one of his creations. The problem here is that people always want to understand everything, and that makes this whole discussion senseless. For God is not someone you can understand or analise. The Christian faith does not make any sense, Jesus Christ does not make any sense (to those who do not know him). It doesn't have to make sense to men, that's why it is called 'faith'. We believe without seeing and understanding.

Does a child not understand its parents because it was made by them?  This, at the very least, demonstrates that one can create equals, and questions why God wouldn't create man with a mind capable of understanding him.  It'd be sort of like genetically engineering people deliberately limited mental faculties and then asking them to factor advanced trig functions.  Further, a computer does not understand the human mind yet.  What happens when we build a computer that can successfully emulate one?  And yes, people do try to understand things because it makes sense.  Understanding, even in some limited sense is imperative to our survival.  Not understanding that fire can damage you, or that the pain of a burn correlates to the source, fire in this case, would be very bad.  What kind of god would deign us to have intelligence only to desire that we discard it on the slightest whim?  Further, without applying intelligence, what god or rationalization do you select out of the thousands available?  The one of your parents?  You probably did, much as I did, because you weren't thinking about it.  As to the Christian faith and story of Jesus not making sense, well, you're absolutely right.  And still you believe it, because you don't think yourself capable of saying  "Wow, that's absurd, and disagrees with a large body of evidence, so it's irrational to believe it.  So I shouldn't believe it."   The funny thing is, if a being as limited as yourself can see that it is absurd, just how can you believe it to be total, inerrant truth?  This is cognitive dissonance, a disease of the mind, an insult to the faculties of reasoning and logic that you do posses.  I sincerely hope you will at least attempt to rationalize your belief in the event you do not discard it.

Because of the relationship with God. Because God calles us to come to Him. This is the deep secret. All this theology doesn't make any sense without a relationship with Jesus Christ. If you really meet Jesus, you just KNOW the truth and the truth will set you free. It is not something a Christian can explain, only the Holy Spirit can show a person in his heart what is the truth. And isn't that what everybody is looking for? The truth?
Why are you trying so hard to prove the Christians to be wrong? Why would you care? Why does it make you so mad?

If it doesn't make sense without a relationship with Jesus, I would love to know how any rational person is supposed to get into heaven.  From the sound of it, you have to be born into the appropriate religion and then compartmentalize your mind before really reading the scripture.  I've yet to meet a rational person who became a Christian after reading the Bible.  Indeed, they always made a commitment to Jesus beforehand, which sort of undermines the point of having the Bible, and it also emotionally invests them in it being right.  Mind, many Christians are aware of the errors of the Bible, hence apologetics, but this is an attempt to make what they desperately want believe agree with what they know to be true.  Oh, but if I really meet Jesus, and he makes profoundly clear to me his identity and divinity, I'll believe.  As to everything only making sense with the Holy Spirit and you being unable to explain it to us, this is doublespeak.  Only through the Holy Spirit can we comprehend, but not really comprehend because then we would be able to explain it?  Or do you mean that we're supposed to go by a gut feeling?  How many gut feelings have you had that were wrong, especially when they disagreed with common sense?  Moving on, yes, we're all seeking this "truth," synonymous with correctness and accuracy.  Ironically, if God created a big phony universe for us to live out our lives in, it'd be pretty far from the truth of things.  If you meant that as seeking factual information, then yes and no.  Everybody seeks information, but some will only seek information that vindicates them while shunning all else, while some will seek indiscriminately, while others will seek all information in their body of interest but seldom outside of it.  The comical part is that "Goddidit" is not a useful answer for anything, indeed it was not a good enough answer even for early Christians who looked for natural explanations for the world acting as it does.  "Goddidit" does not tell us how people get sick nor how antibiotics work, how to build skyscrapers nor combustion engines, neither does it tell us anything about the origin of life nor the origin of the universe itself.  Moving on, I cannot prove the Christians wrong, indeed it isn't my goal.  I cannot, because they isolate their God from reality.   In demonstration of this point, God doesn't physically exist anywhere in the universe, he does not exert any force on it, he will not respond to any stimuli, and the "evidence" that he exists is completely subjective in the form of gut instincts vague notions.  Indeed, the last one is evidence that people want a god to exist, not that there is one.  This is why there are a lot of gods, where only one version of the god or gods could ever be true.  Finally, it makes me mad because I do not like being sad.  And it makes me very sad, pressing hard on me, when people, friends even, choose to discard reality in favor of their mere desires.  When they would rather live in ignorance of the beauty and wonder of the universe and instead favor mysticism and superstition.  When they would rather give worship to nothing and live on their knees just so they can believe they are loved, or protected, or purposed.  It makes me sad because it is simultaneously mental slavery and the willful abandonment of reality in favor of fancy.

Because you are looking for the truth! And they claim to have it! But you just don't understand it. With all the wisdom of the world you would still not be able to understand.

Yep.  I am looking for truth, Christians do claim to have it, and I would not understand it even with all the wisdom in the world, but that is because even a small amount of wisdom informs me that Christians have very little to offer me in the way of truth.  Indeed, I would need to posses less wisdom to "understand" it, though you say yourself that you do not and cannot understand it, just that you know it to be so.

Because only God can reveale the truth through his spirit. The Christian faith is not a faith of the 'mind' , but of the heart and the soul. And when a human soul meets its Maker, it just knows what is the truth. And having this relationship with my God proves me that He is right. That the Bible is the truth. I've seen miracles happen, I've seen God at work. And this proves enough for me, even if I don't understand. I know one day I will understand, when I will stand before Him.

Believe, despite having no reason to?  Did you know there are pink unicorns living on the far side of the moon?  There is a reason we don't take things at face value.  You might claim that the pink unicorns on the far side of the moon don't have a best selling book that's hundreds and hundreds of pages long and written as poetry.  It frightens me to think that you would consider believing this if they did.  If you've seen miracles happen, and God at work, then maybe it can be said I'm just not as lucky as you are.  I've seen no such thing, and no scientific test has detected the supernatural.  Hope your god will at least hear me out on the absurdity of his plan, making a universe that doesn't indicate his presence in any way, giving me the ability to reason, and then being brazen enough not to give a good showing or tossing out some miracles, assuring me a space in hell.  Though, if the universe is any indication, I won't be arguing with anyone post mortem.  Indeed, with the discovery of genes that influence religiousity, your God would be playing with a stacked deck and I'd be predetermined to get screwed.  But we both know what's more likely.  The genes surely exist.  The gods are surely an assumption.  Only one passes Occam's Razor unscaved.

Did you actually ever read the Bible in your search of finding the truth?
... for everybody believes something. And they who don't believe anything, are the ones that are restless and still searching for the truth.

I never read through the whole thing.  The absurdities pilled on too fast and I was often needing to discuss things with my Christian friends even before finishing individual books, when not individual chapters.  Anyway, you last sentence has great merit.  I do seek the truth of things, I am restless (in a way I enjoy, no less), and I do not believe anything on blind faith.  I hope you will realize that if it's the truth you seek, you're seeking it in the wrong place.  There are a myriad of reasons one might believe in a god, but truth and facts don't fall into it.  Comfort, fear of death, desire for fellowship, all of these are valid reasons for wanting to believe, but the Bible has very little information that we can establish as fact, and it certainly doesn't describe how the universe operates.  Science, however, is honest.  It provides evidence, and is heavily scrutinized.  Its evidence is empirical and not subject to interpretation (the idea that God and his actions are subject to interpretation is preposterous, there can only be one true description and sequence of events).  The pursuit of science trumps biblical dogma in every way, and it provides the best "truths" humanity ever had.

Thanks for reading, and peace to you.

[rlrose328]

I've been reading all of this and doing a not-so-slow burn, quite content to just read and not respond but this one needs a response from me:

Does a computer understand human minds. No, a computer cannot understand a human being, because it was made by a human being.

A computer cannot understand a human being because it's not sentient.  Period.  It cannot "think" or "understand" because it does not have a brain.  It can only process what it is programmed to process.  

We, on the other hand, DO have brains, do have the capacity to think and understand, can determine what is real and what is not.

Once I read the above quote, I knew there was no reason to read the rest of your Christian rant because you have no idea what reality and thought are.  Thanks for playing.  Massive fail.

[rlrose328]

Wait, one more thing:

Did you actually ever read the Bible in your search of finding the truth?
... for everybody believes something. And they who don't believe anything, are the ones that are restless and still searching for the truth.

You'd be hard-pressed to find an atheist who hasn't read the bible, my dear little Christian.  I've read it many times over.  I read it as a child and believed... I read it as an adult and saw it for the sham it truly is.  It took intelligence and life-experience away from the brainwashing adults who sought to control me with blind faith.

After I'd read the bible several times, I started my quest for truth, which led me to the texts of other religions, which I read as well.  They all said much the same thing.  That cemented it for me.

I find it horribly sad that you need that ancient book, written by nomads and ancient people, in order to do what is good and right in this world.  I can do the same without the crutch of religion or faith.

We have atheists on this forum who have been such for their entire lives (one is 51 years old).  By your assertion (and that of the other Christian messenger here), he should have been gleefully killing for decades now because he has no god to worship... yet, I'm pretty sure he's a lawabiding righteous citizen.  Look at statistics for the prisons in America... the overwhelming majority of the inhabitants identify as Christians, not atheists.  So if this country is failing, don't blame the non-believers.  Look in your own backyard.  Oh wait... they must not be "true Christians," right?  Convenient.  

[minstrelofc]

rlrose328 - now you've sucked me in.

Do we humans really understand? or do we only think we do? We have limited active capacity - we can only hold around 8 ideas in our heads at any one time, our memory is imperfect - even our senses will give us inaccurate information.

Computers likewise have certain limitations - much different ones than ours.

What if God's understanding is as far beyond ours as ours is beyond a computer's?

[VanReal]

rlrose328 - now you've sucked me in.

Do we humans really understand? or do we only think we do? We have limited active capacity - we can only hold around 8 ideas in our heads at any one time, our memory is imperfect - even our senses will give us inaccurate information.

Computers likewise have certain limitations - much different ones than ours.

What if God's understanding is as far beyond ours as ours is beyond a computer's?

In that case God did not attempt to make humans as anything more than mindless drones that would just obey and provide entertainment, because what would be the point of creating something in your image that doesn't have the capacity to understand what you are doing?  Gods children.  When I raised my children I didn't do it so they would be less able to understand me and the world around them, I work towards them being better able to think and understand than even me.  What would be the purpose of creating a people that aren't able to think or understand?  What's the motive for this creation?

[rlrose328]

rlrose328 - now you've sucked me in.

Do we humans really understand? or do we only think we do? We have limited active capacity - we can only hold around 8 ideas in our heads at any one time, our memory is imperfect - even our senses will give us inaccurate information.

Computers likewise have certain limitations - much different ones than ours.

What if God's understanding is as far beyond ours as ours is beyond a computer's?

We don't have to understand everything in this world.  That's the problem with the god belief and religion.  They feel they have all the answers and if they don't, well "we can't know what god means/wants/etc."

A computer program is only as good as the programmer... and that analogy applies to any creation and its supposed creator.  We are fallible... therefore... you get it.

I can acknowledge that your god's understanding is far beyond ours.  And thus is yet another of the thousand reasons I don't believe god exists.

[minstrelofc]

In that case God did not attempt to make humans as anything more than mindless drones that would just obey and provide entertainment, because what would be the point of creating something in your image that doesn't have the capacity to understand what you are doing?  Gods children.  When I raised my children I didn't do it so they would be less able to understand me and the world around them, I work towards them being better able to think and understand than even me.  What would be the purpose of creating a people that aren't able to think or understand?  What's the motive for this creation?

Even a computer program can produce unique output that we appreciate as beautiful. How much more can a human?

I'm not qualified to judge God's motivations for creating us - if you want I could make some wild guesses (or repeat some that I've heard previously).

btw: love your sig. quote

We don't have to understand everything in this world.  That's the problem with the god belief and religion.  They feel they have all the answers and if they don't, well "we can't know what god means/wants/etc."

A computer program is only as good as the programmer... and that analogy applies to any creation and its supposed creator.  We are fallible... therefore... you get it.

I can acknowledge that your god's understanding is far beyond ours.  And thus is yet another of the thousand reasons I don't believe god exists.

You're right - we don't have to understand everything in this world. I would add that we *can't* understand everything in this world (though we can understand "quite a lot"). All I claim (as a Christian) is that I know Someone who does. (Good luck getting the data from Him though - He has this tendency to only give us just enough data for us to figure it out on our own -- too much data and we become automatons, you see - humans are (in general) very lazy when it comes to thinking. You may have noticed )

A computer program *can* only be as good as the programmer - that's an upper bound. I know how to play chess, but that doesn't mean that if I create a script to backup files to a remote server that that script can play chess. God is infinite and perfect, but that doesn't mean that everything he creates has to be infinite and perfect. (it gets a smidge more complex - yes, we were created perfectly (as God couldn't make a mistake when creating us), but we were given the "ability" to make our own mistakes)

[VanReal]

In that case God did not attempt to make humans as anything more than mindless drones that would just obey and provide entertainment, because what would be the point of creating something in your image that doesn't have the capacity to understand what you are doing?  Gods children.  When I raised my children I didn't do it so they would be less able to understand me and the world around them, I work towards them being better able to think and understand than even me.  What would be the purpose of creating a people that aren't able to think or understand?  What's the motive for this creation?

Even a computer program can produce unique output that we appreciate as beautiful. How much more can a human?

I'm not qualified to judge God's motivations for creating us - if you want I could make some wild guesses (or repeat some that I've heard previously).

btw: love your sig. quote

Thanks!  Would you not consider that an interesting question?  I'm not looking for a qualified judgement just your thoughts.  I'm not really interested in what you are taught or what you get from the bible but what you think.  Why would God create man to be so inept, unintelligent, fragile, and flawed?  I just can't think of any reason why a creator would create such a flawed creature and then want it to praise him/her/it.  It concerns me.  What things have you heard, or better yet what are some of your thoughts on that?

[PipeBox]

God is infinite and perfect, but that doesn't mean that everything he creates has to be infinite and perfect. (it gets a smidge more complex - yes, we were created perfectly (as God couldn't make a mistake when creating us), but we were given the "ability" to make our own mistakes)

Ah, now it gets interesting.  God could conceivably do a "perfect" job creating anything, so long as it was what he intended and he didn't mess up his own design.  Now consider two things.  God is omniscient, so he must know just how we will act when he creates us, or even before, which makes him malevolent in deliberately engineering the majority of humanity to fail.  Even if you state that God is not omniscient, I put it to you that I have enough foresight to see most of his design is going to land people in hell.  It would be insane for anyone to choose sin over God, think about it.  The only reason we do is because of our character flaws.  Just having the choice open doesn't mean sane people take it.  There has to be a factor that demands they do.

The majority of humans would be perfectly created to spend eternity in hell, yes?  Your only way out of this is to say it isn't God's intent, that God isn't omniscient, and that he is not omnipotent.  If this is God's intent, I'm more loving than God.  If God is omniscient, he already knew how he would fail, and wouldn't bother if he was not malevolent, and if he was omnipotent, well, he would be omniscient by willing it and he also wouldn't make mistakes of any kind, leading right back to all of this being his intent.

The only way God works, without being a total bastard, is if we strip him of a great deal of the qualities Christians claim he has (one of these, ironically, being him not being a total bastard).  Indeed, just from the above, a reciprocal, personal relationship with God is out of the question, bar some amazing justification.

[minstrelofc]

Thanks!  Would you not consider that an interesting question?  I'm not looking for a qualified judgement just your thoughts.  I'm not really interested in what you are taught or what you get from the bible but what you think.  Why would God create man to be so inept, unintelligent, fragile, and flawed?  I just can't think of any reason why a creator would create such a flawed creature and then want it to praise him/her/it.  It concerns me.  What things have you heard, or better yet what are some of your thoughts on that?

God's motivation for creating us - definitely an interesting question - a bit like the famous "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin", but at least this one has more interesting (potential) answers.

The most interesting answer that I've heard (and I only tend to remember the interesting ones -   ) )

Yes, we are "inept, unintelligent, fragile, and flawed", but we are also noble, compassionate, beautiful, and innovative. Do we hate fine china because it's fragile, or a child's drawing because it's flawed? No, we will sometimes love it all the more because of its faults.

God doesn't need our praise, but if he exists in any way like I believe him to, then He most definitely deserves it.

[VanReal]

The most interesting answer that I've heard (and I only tend to remember the interesting ones -   ) )

Yes, we are "inept, unintelligent, fragile, and flawed", but we are also noble, compassionate, beautiful, and innovative. Do we hate fine china because it's fragile, or a child's drawing because it's flawed? No, we will sometimes love it all the more because of its faults.

God doesn't need our praise, but if he exists in any way like I believe him to, then He most definitely deserves it.

Interesting explanation, very "human" in characteristic and I like that it seems like a genuine attempt to answer a question with thought rather than pulling it from mere faith.

Doesn't god require praise and worship?  Aren't several of the ten commandments related directly towards that?

[minstrelofc]

PipeBox: Fascinating argument - I like how you constructed it. I wonder if you're going to "catch me". (Is it weird if I   )

Okay, let's start by approaching it though one of my own "pet theories".

Does God have free will?

If we define "free will" in a human way, then no, He does not. There are many things that any of us with His power and abilities could do, but He cannot. He cannot lie, He cannot cheat, He cannot be unjust. He cannot ignore the consequences of His actions.

He cannot do these things, not because He's impotent, but because they are (to Him) simply contradictory. Much like he can't "Make a stone so heavy he can't lift it" - because it's a physical paradox, He cannot lie, because He is the benchmark for Truth.

So, we've established that there are certain things that He can't do, but there's more. There are certain things He MUST do. If someone does wrong (abuses a kid, let's say) then he MUST punish that wrong - if He had the power to, and did not, then he would NOT be a God of Justice.

In fact (if I may combine my "pet theories"), it's possible that re: my discussion with VanReal, God HAD TO create us.

If He is Loving, then He must have someone to love. So He created us, perfectly.
If He is Merciful, then He must have someone who has done wrong to be merciful towards. So He gave us the ability to hurt Him.
If He is Just, then He must punish our wrongdoing. So once we had "sinned", He cannot simply let us "off the hook".
If He is Forgiving, then He must resolve this quandary. So He had Jesus live a perfect life, and willingly take our punishment (which Jesus did not deserve) so that as long as we ask for forgiveness, justice has already been served, and He can forgive us.

Would it be insane to choose sin over God? or just incredibly short-sighted?
Note that according to my random theory, God HAD to make us such that we would choose sin over Him. However, it HAD to be a willful act of disobedience - otherwise it wouldn't count, as we would actually be doing his will, not fulfilling our purpose - remember that (according to the theory) God HAD to create us in that way - it wasn't necessarily His "desire" to do so. (yes, this bit is complex, but so is General Relativity -- a theory that is still not-quite accurate in describing a PHYSICAL phenomenon, never mind a Psychological, or even Spiritual one --- I can try to break this down into more quantifiable bits if needed/requested)
After that, (and this is the "aha" I had about 2-3 years ago) it was simply "triage". God's Loving desire is for everyone to be saved, but due to what he CAN and CANNOT do, only "a few" will be saved.


Problems I have with my theory:

It seems very "limiting" to God. Can God only choose the incidentals of what happens (hair colo(u)r, etc)? Is our conception of "free will" even applicable or desired of God? Perhaps the problem lies with our understanding of "free will", "character", and so forth - it might be (and I'm still missing the :roll: icon) "beyond our understanding".

Semi-problem: Couldn't God use a better strategy to save us all? Simply appearing "in the clouds" to everyone in the world should definitely be "enough" to convince us all to ask for forgiveness. On the other hand - if He did that... Would we really be asking for forgiveness of our own free will? As you yourself say: "It would be insane for anyone to choose sin over God". If God did that, we would be compelled to do His bidding, and that could cause the whole thing to collapse.


Again, these are just my thoughts, and I look forward to you collapsing them all by pointing out all the things I've overlooked  

[Miss Anthrope]

minstrel, I don't have the time to address your posts in detail at the moment, but I just want to say how refreshing it is that you actually put effort into questioning concepts of your religion and don't just post up bible verses and resort to vague esoteric "truths".

you don't make me feel like taking on the role of