Abortion

[Sophus]

Ahem... HER, Soph... I'm a HER.  

Oh dear.    Ha ha. That's one thing I loath about the internet. My apologies. Will try better not to make gender assumptions.

[Titan]

Have to say, Titan, your arguments are really beginning to fail to connect with what the opponent is even saying. What could be used as a defense for rlrose is already in his previous statement. This is why we tend to go in circles so often. In all honesty of trying to help you, pay closer attention to what is being said.

I disagree because when defining life we are forced to give certain human attributes merits (in this case brain function). By defining life by attributes we must extend our definition to other things to see if our definition is valid and whether or not it holds. We must see what a human being consists of. If a brain is what makes a person: must it be a fully functioning brain or just a brain in general? If it is just a brain in general then is it a brain that is fully formed or is a partially formed brain okay? If it is a partially formed brain then how many braincells are needed to make that fetus a human? Is the number arbitrary or does it have a scientific value? These are the questions I'm trying to draw out and these are the questions that are not being answered.

[Sophus]

Have to say, Titan, your arguments are really beginning to fail to connect with what the opponent is even saying. What could be used as a defense for rlrose is already in his previous statement. This is why we tend to go in circles so often. In all honesty of trying to help you, pay closer attention to what is being said.

I disagree because when defining life we are forced to give certain human attributes merits (in this case brain function). By defining life by attributes we must extend our definition to other things to see if our definition is valid and whether or not it holds. We must see what a human being consists of. If a brain is what makes a person: must it be a fully functioning brain or just a brain in general? If it is just a brain in general then is it a brain that is fully formed or is a partially formed brain okay? If it is a partially formed brain then how many braincells are needed to make that fetus a human? Is the number arbitrary or does it have a scientific value? These are the questions I'm trying to draw out and these are the questions that are not being answered.

Shall I break out the crayolas?

Let's reverse the order of this conversation and see if it still works:

Essentially what you are saying is that your definition is not worth applying elsewhere.You have defined life only for this specific case...

I don't consider an embryo a person who deserves life at the expense of the mother's wishes/needs. There is no need to extend any definition past the specific instance I defined. ...

...I'm done on this topic. I will not be re-interpreted and forced to defend my views here any more. You know where I stand.

All you did was essentially restate what she said only present it in a negative fashion. Have you ever considered a career in politics? Her intuition told her she would only be reinterpreting it for you again and clearly she was right. We all formulate questions based on the answers we want to hear. But you must learn to accept a valid answer even when it is not what you're looking for or expecting to see.

[Titan]

Essentially what you are saying is that your definition is not worth applying elsewhere.You have defined life only for this specific case...

I don't consider an embryo a person who deserves life at the expense of the mother's wishes/needs. There is no need to extend any definition past the specific instance I defined. ...

...I'm done on this topic. I will not be re-interpreted and forced to defend my views here any more. You know where I stand.

All you did was essentially restate what she said only present it in a negative fashion. Have you ever considered a career in politics? Her intuition told her she would only be reinterpreting it for you again and clearly she was right. We all formulate questions based on the answers we want to hear. But you must learn to accept a valid answer even when it is not what you're looking for or expecting to see.

I know she said that, the problem is that it isn't a rational conclusion. It would be like someone saying that that a human being is a human being as soon as it has 46 chromosomes. Well, okay, that makes life start at conception but that excludes people with down syndrome as being human. You see? There are implications to our definition of life and I want her to reach hers. I believe that when one logically works through it the only rational conclusion is that life begins at conception, it is the one with the fewest unanswered problems or the 1000 extra pinpoint case by case definitions that must follow. I want her to see where her definition of life applies and ask her why she believes it begins at that time? Is her choice of life beginning where it does arbitrary or does it have a logical basis. That is what I'm trying to get at and that is what she is refusing to get at. If you would like to argue her case I would love to continue this discussion.

[Sophus]

I'm no lawyer, I'll tell you what I think. Not everyone will ever see eye to eye in regards to when life begins; at conception or what. But I think we can all agree that life will inevitably be birthed from a healthy pregnant woman. Therefore we have no business in preventing it since we are all given the right live.

[Wraitchel]

"Life" doesn't begin until birth because a fetus is a parasite. It cannot live without its host until the third trimester (in most cases).

[Tanker]

Many of my beliefs don't follow the "norm" for atheists. They truly are mine too, that is to say not biased by earlier religion, I was raised by my mother who was vaguely Buddist 20 years ago and is an atheist now , her father is an atheist , and mother a Unitarian. So a pretty free thinking chain. I totaly agree with abortion if the mother will die or the child is sick or deformed. Rape I'm less sure on, while being a male I don't have the deeper understanding of pregnancy that women do, but the thought being pregnant with a child, born of hate and violence seem abhorrent to me. Yet I also believe that life starts at conception (again not the "norm"). To me life starts similar to a fire, I don't think the fire is really going only when all the logs are burning but when the match is first lit. That being said I don't think it's fair to the child, who all can agree is innocent, to be killed because it's conception was not. So I really can decide on abortions for rape (I include incest with rape). I don't think any other reason is justified. There is contraception available, and I believe most christians would agree contraception is a lesser "evil" to abortion (contraception preventing my provebial match from being lt is NOT an issue for me) . So ending a life because of your own irresponsabiliy seems almost stupid to me. I have also seen footage of partial birth abortion and it, to me, can't becalled anything but murder through a legal loop hole.

[Faithless]

In the poll I chose abortion is okay during the first two trimesters; however, I believe it's okay only during the first trimester, but that wasn't listed as an option.  Just wanted to make that clear.

A woman has the right to choose what happens to her own body.  Period.  Anyone not that woman, regardless of religious affiliation or belief, needs to stay the fuck out of her business.  That includes the law, holier-than-thou Christians, Titan, and anyone else trying to dictate to other people what to do with their lives.

My entire life I've watched Christians up on their high horses deciding what's wrong with people and the world, and crying out that if only everyone would open their hearts to Jaysus the world would be a better place, lions would lie down with lambs, and we'd all sit down on Easter Sunday to eat pork with the ex-Muslims.

On the day when all the bleeding heart Christians so desperate to control other people's reproductive rights stand up in church and swear on that musty old book they're so enamored of to financially and physically provide for all the unwanted babies that would otherwise be aborted, AND put their money where their loud mouths are, I will rejoice with them that there is less of a need for abortion.  And knowing what I know about the vast majority of Christians, I will continue to support women's right to choose and legal abortions.

[Sophus]

"Life" doesn't begin until birth because a fetus is a parasite. It cannot live without its host until the third trimester (in most cases).

I hate to be the one to break this to you but....

[spoiler:mz8w29rm]parasites can be living things.[/spoiler:mz8w29rm]

[Tom62]

"Life" doesn't begin until birth because a fetus is a parasite. It cannot live without its host until the third trimester (in most cases).

I hate to be the one to break this to you but....

[spoiler:27rsfkq7]parasites can be living things.[/spoiler:27rsfkq7]

Aren't small children according to that same logic not parasites either? A baby or small child can also not survive without its parents.

[rlrose328]

Wraitchel, I understand what you're saying even if other want to play the semantics game.  

[Sophus]

"Life" doesn't begin until birth because a fetus is a parasite. It cannot live without its host until the third trimester (in most cases).

I hate to be the one to break this to you but....

[spoiler:2gq0r6ot]parasites can be living things.[/spoiler:2gq0r6ot]

Aren't small children according to that same logic not parasites either? A baby or small child can also not survive without its parents.

They are not parasites but it's for a different reason. A parasite is defined as an organism of one species living in or on an organism of another species.

Wraitchel, I understand what you're saying even if other want to play the semantics game.  

What else does she mean by claiming a fetus a parasite other than trying to make her crux that they are not as valuable as adults?

[Wraitchel]

Rightio. I fell into your rhetoric trap. I shouldn't have wandered along the path of where life begins. Argue with this, oh contentious one: I believe a woman has the right to terminate an unwanted pregnancy at any point until the fetus is viable (as determined by her doctor). Furthermore, I believe that anyone who seeks to reduce the number of abortions in the world would do much better to get their butts away from the computer and go out and adopt some poor, unwanted crack baby.

The ironic thing is, I am with you most of the way. I think abortion is usually wrong, but I was raped at age 15, and although I did not get pregnant, if I had, I believe very strongly that I should have had the right to terminate without having to go through the process of proving I was raped. There are a million individual stories in which a woman is put in an impossible place by a pregnancy. Nobody wins whether she carries the fetus to term or not. It must remain her choice. If you really want to reduce the number of abortions, go out and make some ill or victimized woman's life better. Go out and adopt an unloved crack baby or a pregnant teen. Don't sit here and pretend you're doing something useful. As John Mayer says,
"Oh everyone believes
In how they think it oughta be
Oh everyone believes
And they’re not going easy"

You're not going to change any minds here.

[Sophus]

You're not going to change any minds here.

Yeah. Unfortunately that applies to you as well. As Frank Zappa says:
"One of my favorite philosophical tenets is that people will agree with you only if they already agree with you. You do not change people's minds."

I believe once something is alive it has the right to live. There are very few excuses for taking, or even preventing, a life.

[Wraitchel]

I believe once something is alive it has the right to live. There are very few excuses for taking, or even preventing, a life.

 So don't kill. That's how I follow my belief in that respect. I don't mean to sound glib or disrespectful. I respect you for honoring life. I just have very strong feelings about the need for abortion to remain legal even though it is sometimes abused. We tried making it illegal in the twenties. It didn't work.