HOORAY for atheism!!!

[Titan]

The existence of an invisible flying purple people eater purple can neither be proven or disproven ... would you accept as a working hypothesis that it might exist and that we should all act with that in mind and be forced to justify our stance with respect to the claim?

A common point made against Christianity...however this assumes that the Christian argument is made in isolation. That is not the case. There are evidences in various aspects of the world that lead some of us to our faith in Christianity. If you want we could start a discussion on that subject, it is a valid question.

[karadan]

What a bunch of shit. Pardon my French.

I do not need to defend my assertion that there is no god. I'm typing on an atheist website. That should be all the evidence you need to support my claim for the school of thought i subscribe to.

Yes, it's an 'Atheist' website, but it's also the 'Religion' section, so unless you're well versed in in this vast topic, you're talking out of your ass. Your 1 dimensional thinking and arguments are what I'd expect from an 11 year old. Just because you make some assertion based on something that you know nothing about doesn't make it so.

You're entitled to your opinion, but not all opinions carry equal weight. I'll let you have the last word and if you want, you can even declare 'victory', but I'm not getting anything substantive out of your thinking. Enjoy the hard on you get from your stupid bus billboard, or whatever, I suppose a little kid would get the same thrill if they saw an ad of someone picking their nose plastered on a bus.. wow, so many people will disapprove, so naughty, hey, they can't do that... enjoy your thrill.

Sat Nam

I've touched a nerve, obviously.

I like the way you glide over my statement:

Besides, if your religion absolutely encourages critical thinking then why can't you entertain the possibility that your are wrong about god? If you don't think my statement warrants a serious response then you aren't thinking critically at all. You are steadfast in an unshakeable belief system which is not open to critical analysis.

Maybe you are pissed off because i found a weakness in your theory? A weakness being, that if you try to conceive a universe without god, the entire foundation of your deity-based belief system comes crashing down around you. My belief system has no such tentative instability, well, unless the second coming happened tomorrow. In that case i'd have to stand corrected

And yes, i am entitled to my opinion and in that opinion i declare that god definitely does not exist. Deal with it.

I'd prefer not to have the last word. I'd like to carry this on. I'd like you to prove to me that your religion is COMPLETELY open to critical analysis including the debate on whether god even exists or not. If you cannot entertain this then your original statement is null and void and your argument poignantly moot.[

[Titan]

That being said Karadan, how did matter come into existence?

[curiosityandthecat]

That being said Karadan, how did matter come into existence?

I can answer that one:

[karadan]

That being said Karadan, how did matter come into existence?

To really understand the answer to that question you'd have to be able to think in nine dimensions. I'm quite partial to the multiple consecutive sequential universe theory, though.

That being said, the big bang is the best hypothesis for the conditions directly after the beginning of the universe. As to how it happened, well, it is always happening. A hyper-dimensional cosmic fireball continuously giving birth to all manner of universes. We see it as a singular event because we live and percieve our universe through three dimensions. This limits our ability to understand the big bang principle and it cannot really be understood without radical brain chemistry alteration.

That is a theory, of course.

[Tom62]

I find the slogan "There is probably no God" also rather silly. It is just like saying "There is probably no Santa Claus" or "Evolution might be right". Couldn't they've come up with a better slogan?

[Kyuuketsuki]

I won't get nasty, but simply observe that your analogy is an extremely poor one at best.

Why? Exactly what makes my analogy a poor one? Justify your assertion.

Kyu

[Whitney]

Without pointing any fingers, I would like to remind those participating in this thread that rule one calls for treating others with respect.

[Whitney]

I find the slogan "There is probably no God" also rather silly. It is just like saying "There is probably no Santa Claus" or "Evolution might be right". Couldn't they've come up with a better slogan?

I think that by saying "probably" it is more likely to appeal to a wider audience possibly   getting them to think about the statment rather than brush it off as atheist closed mindedness.

[karakara]

karadan,

You win, you win, HOORAY for karadan!!! And your prize is: an empty soul and a life devoid of the beauty and ecstasy of the spiritual and
mystical experience. But this is your choice.. but.. you have free will. Minds and hearts can change. In fact, if you're really smart and your make the effort to find you true spiritual calling, and friend, it's out there just waiting for you.. you'll find it.

Friend, this thread is spiraling into the realm of the absurd.. it's just the polar dynamic set up by our positions. I've read some of your other post, pls. read mine to see where I'm coming from.

I'll leave you with this, the opening verse of my holy book, Siri Guru Granth Sahib, it's called 'Mool Mantra', and in a nutshell, it's all anyone needs to know about Sikhism. Sung by an angel on earth, Snatam Kaur Khalsa, pride of Sikhs everywhere. I recite this every morning before I get up, and I sing this, as well as many other shabads, during worship. The feeling it gives me is indescribable.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3zUYK4YU8M

See you on some other thread, hopefully more upbeat.

[PipeBox]

That's a great video, karakara.  Some incredible imagery to go with a song to match.  Albeit, I didn't understand most of it, but it was pleasing to listen to.  But in regards to what you posted, I think a lot of religious folks get the impression that atheists aren't happy to be alive, or that they don't see the beauty in things.  I can't speak for everyone, but I'm ridiculously happy to be here, atoms arranged in such an unlikely fashion.  My existence, or the existence of beautiful mountain vista wasn't preordained or promised from the beginning.  As someone has a forum signature saying, "I want to be a human being, not a human doing," and that's how I see it.  Everything is glorious and worth remark, and I try to take nothing for granted.  Not seeing anything supernatural at work doesn't make my existence feel hollow, though it did at first.  Scientists and atheists typically use language that doesn't reflect how they feel about something, but that should never be taken to mean they don't feel.   I don't think I can keep excitement out of my voice as I explain my current understanding of how we got here to other interested people, but hearing concrete scientific terms rather than ones that culturally inspire (miracle) often leaves my audience without enthusiasm because their attention is being directed to how something happened, not how great it is (to me at least) that we're here to discuss it.  I think the impression of a lot of people is that atheists look at something remarkable and say, "It's all just matter and energy, why should I care?" when I say,"Woah!  Look at how that matter and energy is arranged!  How awesome!"  This reaction is not likely universal to all atheists, but then I doubt all religious or spiritual folks see beauty in everything, and I know we all take some stuff for granted.

Point is, I'm happy to be here, and I'm happy you're here, and I'm happy that we can have this conversation!
Here's hoping you stick around!  

[karakara]

Holy Cow PipeBox -- you're right, you're an Atheist.. as was I... but by your own words, you're spiritual. In fact, I highly, highly recommend you find a copy of "The Mystic Heart: Discovering a Universal Spirituality in the World's Religions".. by Wayne Teasdale. You sound like a Mystic who simply isn't aware of who or what you are.

If you don't mind, since I find your post interesting, I'll make a few comments:

That's a great video, karakara. Some incredible imagery to go with a song to match. Albeit, I didn't understand most of it, but it was pleasing to listen to.

It's the Mool Mantra, uttered by our founding Guru (Guru = 'One who removes darkness from our eyes') Siri Guru Nanak Dev Sahib Ji.. aka 'Guru Nanak'.. after his revelation from God. All Sikhs recite this mantra before sunrise to begin the day. For brevity's sake I'll just say that, but to really understand the power of the concepts of Mool Mantra, you have to understand the history and times of Guru Nanak.. what he was saying was revolutionary. Thank you for even bothering to click the link ;-)

I think a lot of religious folks get the impression that atheists aren't happy to be alive, or that they don't see the beauty in things. I can't speak for everyone, but I'm ridiculously happy to be here, atoms arranged in such an unlikely fashion.

You are absolutely right, indeed. I was an atheist, and felt the same as you, as I did enjoy life and considered that I had had developed my own standards of conduct, decency, morality, etc., over the years.. I knew that I was a more moral person than many so-called 'religious' people, and no doubt, there are many members of this forum who are better Human Beings that many so-called 'religious' people.  I know you are right, as my faith teaches me that all Human Beings, far from being 'Fallen Creatures' as some othe faiths teach, believes the opposite. Guru Nanak was given the insight by God that all Human Beings posess his gift, the Light of Divinity in their (our) souls. We are divine entities by our nature and by God's Grace. Our greatest challenge as Human Beings is to realize and acknowledge this truth, and then once we understand the magnitude of our divine gift from God, how to live up to this awesome responsibility.

My existence, or the existence of beautiful mountain vista wasn't preordained or promised from the beginning.

I believe you, again, are correct. God's symphony is being written every second. We have free will. As Sikh, I have to accept whatever science proves. Our faith has no conflict with science.. you'll never hear a Sikh making some claim that the Earth is only 5000 years old, that dinosaurs are a lie, etc. No conflict. In fact, Guru Nanak describes the Big Bang. 500 years ago. Compared to other religions cosmologies/cosmogenies, this is incredible. How did he know?

Everything is glorious and worth remark, and I try to take nothing for granted.

PipeBox, you mystic, you Zen you...

Not seeing anything supernatural at work doesn't make my existence feel hollow, though it did at first.

I can understand.. been there! Even without God, the universe is more amazing that we can imagine.. and we can imagine quite a bit.

Scientists and atheists typically use language that doesn't reflect how they feel about something, but that should never be taken to mean they don't feel.

Ditto. Since scientists and atheists are, after all, Human(!), then by my own faith I acknowledge the divine spirit, divine light of their souls... they cannot fail to experience the same awe and beauty in life that I can.

I don't think I can keep excitement out of my voice as I explain my current understanding of how we got here to other interested people, but hearing concrete scientific terms rather than ones that culturally inspire (miracle) often leaves my audience without enthusiasm because their attention is being directed to how something happened, not how great it is (to me at least) that we're here to discuss it.

I'm chuckling, as I just wrote a post at Sikhnet that cautions against the misuse of 'miracles' as explanation, superstition, and about the human tendency to draw false conclusions.. correlation does not prove causation.. I can speak your language quite fluently, friend. Having said that, it's our belief that the Universe was created, and that this is the Original Miracle, and depending on your definition of 'miracle', you can say that everything is a miracle, or sub-miracles of the original miracle.. being spawned of a miracle..

You make good points, and I concede that atheists are the target of too much stereotyping.  After all, a-theist just means a person who does not subscribe to any particular theology..  it does not exclude an aspect of spirituality in the person. An 'Atheist' can indeed be 'Spiritual but Not Religious'..

Please get that book, I think you'll see your own thoughts and experiences on almost every page.

Sat Nam.

[PipeBox]

Sorry it's taken me so long to reply!

I'll definitely look around for that book, hopefully it'll be at Books-A-Million so that way I can give it a scan before buying.  

As to my spirituality, I'd say I'm almost as spiritual as your typical pantheist.  But I don't class myself one because I don't trust myself to keep to a standard.  But I can't, at this point, intellectually endorse Sikhism.  It takes that leap of faith that there is a Creator God, and that humans have the ability to make contact with it.   And I would not be able to take a knee in any religion without constantly questioning it.  And that isn't a good way of living, in my humble opinion, perpetually in doubt.  Since leaving Christianity I've become to skeptical of supernatural beliefs to just pick a new one based on its many merits (even acceptance of science and not looking down on others, which are huge selling points).  I also could never hold my tongue if others were discussing religions, it's not in my ability to give religions I find morally or intellectually bankrupt a free pass.  So if I ran into a Fundamentalist Christian, I'd not be able to keep my mouth shut if they couldn't do the same with theirs.  

Apologies if this scatterbrained, I'm still sleepy.

[Kyuuketsuki]

I won't get nasty, but simply observe that your analogy is an extremely poor one at best.

Why? Exactly what makes my analogy a poor one? Justify your assertion.

Karakara ... I'm still waiting for you to justify your assertion.

Kyu

[karadan]

I won't get nasty, but simply observe that your analogy is an extremely poor one at best.

Why? Exactly what makes my analogy a poor one? Justify your assertion.

Karakara ... I'm still waiting for you to justify your assertion.

Kyu

me too.