Laminin is Proof of Jesus?

[Shalo'zier]

So (for those who remember) it turned out well for me. I'm happily at the university of my choice, and making a lot of new friends. We've formed an Atheist and Agnostic Alliance, and will be having our first meeting on the 29th of October (after reading week.)

But that's besides the point. A while back I came across a video, in which a Christian brought up the idea that Laminin was proof of god, because it's cross shaped.

Here's the video that first made this argument known to me.

There's the obvious refutation, that "if things that looked designed must have a designer. Then things that don't look designed, therefore don't have a designer. And if the designer designed everything, everything must look designed, but if they don't looked designed there is therefore no designer,"

But I'm looking for other arguments, hopefully ones with more scientific grounding then mine.

If this topic has already been brought up, please forgive me. I did a forum search for laminin and nothing came up.

[Kyuuketsuki]

I wasn't able to find much at my usual sites but I found this here which might help:

http://fayfreethinkers.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5192

From the look of it it is actually only a diagramatic representation of the molecule that is cross-like, as is usual (?) in nature the real situation is rather more complex.

Hope that helps a bit

Kyu

[Stoicheion]

Oh so just because it's cross-shaped it has to be a symbol of god? Turn an X sideways and its cross-shaped. Man made the ties between a cross and "god" when christianity came to its rise after the fall of the Roman Empire. Post-fall, the romans used the cross to kill people. It didn't just start with Jesus. They often tied criminals to a cross in the amphitheaters to be ripped apart by other gladiators or wild animals like bears, lions, et cetera. All for the sake of brutality and amusement. So to those people, the cross was something to be greatly feared.

The only reason they think its proof of god is because Jesus died on a cross.

The only reason we think that something has "order" is because we are structured beings. Diamond has a very ordered atomic structure, that's why its so indestructible. The line you wait in to get your lunch is structured and orderly. Why haven't they gone to the cafeteria and praise god and say "this is proof!"

The reason i don't believe in God is because its insulting to humanity. We lower ourselves so greatly by depending on a higher being for our intelligence. The only reason they believe in "god" is because they can't believe in themselves.

[rlrose328]

It's amazing what they will come up with, isn't it?  That molecule predates Christianity for gawd's sake.  

And Snopes covered this in May.  Gotta love 'em!

I watched most of that video... gagging throughout most of it.  And the gasps when he put up the graphic... which he had to turn on its side to show as a cross.  And they don't understand that the molecule doesn't actually LOOK like that, right?  I mean, when they illustrate molecules, they make them look like whatever they want!  That doesn't mean the molecule looks exactly like that!  GEEBUS!    

Hey... can we find out who did that illustration and have them make a statement that he just chose that shape just because?  Of course, "they" would say that god inspired him to use that shape because it's accurate.  Ugh.

[LARA]

Argggh.  My favorite thing to hate, the injection of Christian or other cultural symbolism into nature.  I wish these circular logic fuckwads would leave everything the hell alone.  This is my first time around, and I'm not doing it again because I've already changed the default settings on my Flash player from loop.  See Buddha, it wasn't that fucking hard.  Well, okay maybe it was when you did it, but you might as well be as imaginary as Jesus.

Ahem.  Anyway, I digress.  If any of these guys wants to see Jesus Christ, I have him crucified in my garden on a telephone cord that's tied between two fence posts.  He's apparently dead, but I'm waiting until Easter to see if he resurrects himself next year.

For those of you who prefer reality to metaphors, "Jesus Christ" is what I named the grape vine that I planted in my garden last spring.  It's a seedless table variety, but I'm sure we can still manage the water into wine process if the thing ever bears fruit.  And I can prove it's Virgin birth, too, as it's a cloned variety taken from a known cultivar.  Unfortunately, it's a total misfit, human manufactured to be grown with pesticides and fungicides, and since I garden organically, everything ate the damn thing and it's pretty much near dead.  I think Jesus was a fitting name for it.

[Squid]

Oh so just because it's cross-shaped it has to be a symbol of god? Turn an X sideways and its cross-shaped.

Actually, it seems the universe favors the X-files:

[Asmodean]

That looks more like the satanic cross, no?  :|

[Shalo'zier]

Depending on the orientation, it could be a satanic cross, a sword, or caduceus.

[DennisK]

What about the correlation of round cells to halos?

[Titan]

I remember this talk, Laminin is more of a illustration for Christianity and Christ as the purpose of Laminin correlates so amazingly well with who Christ is from an evangelical perspective.

I read the Snopes article (not all the way through) but the picture they show at the end is confusing simply because it appears that the Laminin protein is folded on top of itself.

I'm not saying that Laminin proves Christianity, I'm simply saying that some of the stuff is taken out of context.

Ahem. Anyway, I digress. If any of these guys wants to see Jesus Christ, I have him crucified in my garden on a telephone cord that's tied between two fence posts. He's apparently dead, but I'm waiting until Easter to see if he resurrects himself next year.

What on earth are you talking about?

[Kyuuketsuki]

I'm not saying that Laminin proves Christianity, I'm simply saying that some of the stuff is taken out of context.

Good!

Looking at the photos (presumably some from of electron microscopy) Laminin is not a cross, far from it and in fact (if you've done any organic chemistry) you'll know there are other cross shaped molecules in existence, indeed it doesn't even take organic chemistry, what about C03, wouldn't that on paper be a cross? And what about the oxonium ion h3o+? At best Laminin being cross shaped is mere conicidence and those that claim it has religious significance are reaching every bit as much as those who said a couple of girders shaped like a cross in the wreckage of the WTC towers was a message from god (it was actually a message to unscrupulous shysters to make "graven images" of the thing to exploit believers stupid enough to part with the huge sums of money they demanded.

Kyu

[Titan]

At best Laminin being cross shaped is mere conicidence

You were completely right up until this point. Hypothetically, if there WAS a God and he created everything then wouldn't it be within his power to create a specific protein with a specific function in order to illustrate a higher truth? HYPOTHETICALLY, the answer should be yes (NOTE: SAYING YES TO THAT DOESN'T MEAN YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE IN A GOD, IT DOESN'T EVEN SUGGEST THAT THERE IS A GOD).

[curiosityandthecat]

Whether or not Jesus was crucified on a cross is something to seriously question. Crucifixion comes from crux, Latin meaning cross. However, the New Testament Greek word is stauros, which means any sort of pole or wooden stake with or without a cross beam. Acts and 1 Peter go so far as to call the implement xulon, meaning tree. Assuming he was not simply affixed to a vertical wooden pole, the item Jesus supposedly carried with him through the streets was not a cross: it would have been merely the cross beam that fit on top of another, pre-placed wooden stake or pole. It would have looked like T much more than †.

[Titan]

Considering that it was the Roman's form of punishment there is a good chance it was indeed a cross (though this is kind of irrelevant, I don't know why we're arguing the subject as a whole).
Seneca the Younger stated: "I see crosses there, not just of one kind but made in many different ways: some have their victims with head down to the ground; some impale their private parts; others stretch out their arms on the gibbet."

Still, there is a good chance that it was in a shape similar to a T (after the Greek letter Tau) but there would have been a spot just above the top post with a small extension. Making it some sort of hybrid cross.

[Kyuuketsuki]

At best Laminin being cross shaped is mere conicidence

You were completely right up until this point. Hypothetically, if there WAS a God and he created everything then wouldn't it be within his power to create a specific protein with a specific function in order to illustrate a higher truth? HYPOTHETICALLY, the answer should be yes (NOTE: SAYING YES TO THAT DOESN'T MEAN YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE IN A GOD, IT DOESN'T EVEN SUGGEST THAT THERE IS A GOD).

If, if, if ... seems to me that every point you are trying to make rests on an assumption. I could as easily argue that if there's a flying spaghetti monster then some molecule with lots of branches it was proof of the validity of Pastafarianism, or molecules with a single chain proof of the Invisible Pink Unicorn. Being brutal the whole Laminin proves the existence of god (or even supports it in some way) is total garbage.

Kyu