passionately atheist

[dodgecity]

When I recently became an atheist, I struggled with the fact that my friends and relatives still believed in utter nonsense. Especially my younger brother. I have always had much respect for him and I love him like...well, like a brother. We agree on almost everything, everything important anyway. So when I changed my mind about our faith, we both feared that it would come between us. He was there as I made the gradual transition to atheism, and he always respected everything I said.

We had this silent, mutual agreement to just let each other think differently. But this can't go on.

You see, it's not like a flavor of ice cream. It isn't an issue of preference. One of us is right and the other is wrong. And it matters, it really does. A lot.

It's more than just about what happens after we die, it's what happens while we live, and why. It's our lives! I am afraid that many accept nonthinking under the guise of tolerance. For peace's sake, I could see this as admirable, but it doesn't feel right to agree to disagree with my brother. He has so much potential, and I know that religion hampers it, suffocates it. I can't stand idly by while my parents infect him every day with this dangerous nonsense.

So I am in the process of writing a letter. Not a letter specifically to him, but to all who were raised in Judeo-Christian families. I try to showcase the exact steps of logic that brought me to this conclusion, since it happened very recently. My only goal is that a Christian will read this letter and it will cause him to think, just for a moment. Because no one tried to persuade me to change my beliefs. I was only persuaded to think, and once I started thinking, it all became clear.Thinking kills faith because it is the very opposite of it.

So here it is in its present form, quite flawed. I would love feedback and some direction. Thanks for listening.

There comes a time in everyone’s life where they realize that their parents are human, too. They are not perfect, they are not always right, and in fact, whether or not they are smart or good people hasn’t the slightest to do with the fact that they are your parents. They have the same chance of being ignorant or evil as anyone you might meet on the street. It might seem disrespectful to think of your parents in this fashion, but all you’re doing is looking from a broader perspective, viewing your parents as if you were not their child.

 But looking at our parents this way is uncomfortable, so why would we do it? In short, we do it because we don’t trust other people like that, so what makes our parents so special? We don’t swallow everything fed to us by others, so why should we make an exception for our parents?

 Let’s not limit this to our parents. It applies to all who we have trusted and respected since childhood, anyone who had a hand in our upbringing.

 Let me elaborate by giving an example.

 My younger brother is fifteen years old. He is in the kitchen with my father. My brother mentions something he read earlier that day: “Did you know that the current casualties of the war in Iraq total to 4,145?”

 My father, a simple (if somewhat confused) conservative is immediately on the defensive. “I don’t want to hear that mess. You need to show more respect to those men who died for our country. Freedom isn’t free.”

 You see, freethinking is discouraged in my household. According to my father, my brother is not entitled to his opinion because having an opinion is disrespectful. Such a liberal viewpoint, in his opinion, is not only incorrect, but immoral. He regularly chastises his son for having an apposing viewpoint. This hurts me because I can see that my brother struggles to think independently in the iron grip of my father’s totalitarian family philosophy. Does he really believe that he has the right to push his beliefs onto his children? Isn’t that, after all, what parents do?

 My father misses my brother’s point completely. This is made evident in his (oh so original) statement, “Freedom isn’t free.” Does he not realize that the case my brother is making is that the war in Iraq is not for freedom?

 Then my father says something else, one of the most disturbing things I’ve ever heard out of his mouth. “Sounds like you need to be readin’ more of the Old Testament.”

 Wow.

 This appalling statement has even more appalling implications and leads us to the bulk of what I’d like to talk about: our parents’ weird, nonsensical, and narrow minded beliefs that they hand down to us as children when we are too young to give consent or think for ourselves.

 Please note: In the following, I refer mainly to the Judeo-Christian Faith because I am familiar with it and because most people I know believe it.

 So why do you believe what you believe? You may try to convince me (and yourself) that your parents didn’t cause you to be Christian because they gave you a choice. But did they really? Have they ever entertained the mere possibility that they are wrong and that you have options? Of course not; to do that would be immoral from their point of view. What would your parents think of you if you didn’t share their beliefs? Wouldn’t they do anything to save you from hell? You see, my point is not to expose your parents as ill willed, because their intentions are surely admirable. My point is to help you realize that yes, if it weren’t for your parents, you would not believe the things you believe.

 I was born and raised in a Christian family for 20 years. Long before I ever considered the possibility that it was all bullocks, I came to grips with the fact that if I was born into a Catholic or Muslim family, I would share their beliefs instead. You may be snooty and self-righteous enough to say that‘s not true of yourself, but you don’t believe it. Think about it. Your parents greatly affected the way you think; you were taught from an early age not to challenge or question them. When you were the most impressionable, your parents were the one’s making the impressions. Children can not think for themselves, but you are not a child anymore. You owe it to yourself and your children to re-examine the things you believe.

 I was not only a Christian for twenty years; I was hardcore Christian, passionate about my faith, obsessive about my sin, and wary of the ways of the secular world. If you were to ask me why I believed what I believed, my answer would be as follows, and I’m sure all our answers fall into these categories.

 

1. Other People â€" Everyone I knew was a Christian, everyone I looked up to, loved and respected. That is a very powerful thing. If everyone I knew believed it, it was virtually impossible for me not to accept it as truth. My parents made sure that I was only around those who shared the faith. If everyone else accepted it, it must be true, right? Who was I to deviate? Yet everyone believing in something does not make it true.

2. Fear of Hell â€" Fear is a very powerful tool as well. When my logic began to make me question the validity of the bible, the fear of eternal damnation helped me shut those thoughts out.

3. Beauty â€" The world is a beautiful place. For no reason, with no backing, I associated the beauty of the world with the god of the bible. Why would I do that? That the world is beautiful doesn’t prove that Christians are right, because it’s not fair to automatically associate that beauty with your god and claim it as your own.

4. Personal Experience â€" My emotions played a huge role in my faith. I believed when I worshiped, I could feel god’s presence. Again, it’s all about unfair association. I was associating those feelings with a god that I was told existed. Feelings that arose from the natural beauty of music, from my friends and family singing along, and from all the emotion in the room. Why do you think we get together to worship? The real question is: do our emotions validate this belief? Euphoric feelings arise from many situations. Can we trust our inconsistent emotions, which we know from science are the result of chemicals in the brain, to guide us spiritually? And if so, who’s to say what religion we associate those emotions with?

 
Aside from these reasons, which I have just exposed as hollow, there is no basis for believing such nonsense. There is no proof that the bible is accurate. There is no sort of evidence to lead us to that conclusion, just crowds of sincere believers. They all believe because they all believe.

[Msblue]

Religion discouraging critical thinking bothers me as well. The lack of skepticism seems to be carried over into other parts of people's lives (at least in my family).

With your help, your brother with be fine. Just the fact that he reads about the war in Iraq tells me he's a "thinker". Most adults don't know or care about how many soldiers have died.

[myleviathan]

Hi, Dodgecity - I just wanted to extend a warm welcome to you. I read your letter and I find it very similar to my own thought process when I realized I was an atheist. Organizing your thoughts like that after being raised to believe in non-sense is very therapeutic. If you want to post your letter for some Christians, find some of the Christian forums on the internet and introduce yourself. I doubt many of them will listen to you - but you never know who might read it and think for a moment. They'll probably argue that you were never a Christian, which is of course rediculous. But I found it to be helpful to talk with believers. That will help you to further define yourself and your stance.

Anyway - welcome to the forum. See you 'round.

[dodgecity]

The lack of skepticism seems to be carried over into other parts of people's lives.

Exactly! For example, my father informed me yesterday that we will be canceling our Sam's Club subscription because he heard from a friend that Walmart supports gays. Turns out his friend learned from one of those "fwd this or else!" emails and I checked on Snopes and it is indeed fake.

So even disregarding his inexcusable bigotry, he doesn't even try to get his facts straight! "Listen and obey, it is the only way. " Indeed.  

Anyways, nice to meet you too. It's great to be here.

[TheDutchAthiest]

I believe that religion depends on whether your parents are religious or not. For example: my father is an atheist, my mother an agnostic. I was raised completely neutral, I've never had a single conversation about religion with my parents. They did buy me a children's bible and I have read that book many times with great interest, but I didn't have a clue what exactly it was about. When I was about ten, I discovered that some people believed the stories in that book and I became more interested in god, but finally found everything about religion bs.
If so many children weren't pushed into religion by their parents, I think the biggest part of them would choose to be an atheist, like me. Religion isn't something that 'comes to you', it is part of how you are raised.

[myleviathan]

I believe that religion depends on whether your parents are religious or not. For example: my father is an atheist, my mother an agnostic. I was raised completely neutral, I've never had a single conversation about religion with my parents. They did buy me a children's bible and I have read that book many times with great interest, but I didn't have a clue what exactly it was about. When I was about ten, I discovered that some people believed the stories in that book and I became more interested in god, but finally found everything about religion bs.
If so many children weren't pushed into religion by their parents, I think the biggest part of them would choose to be an atheist, like me. Religion isn't something that 'comes to you', it is part of how you are raised.

There may also be a genetic component to being religious, as well. Some people have more of an inclination toward 'religiosity' than others. You're right, a big part of whether someone turns out is based on their environment - or how they were raised. But that wouldn't explain why I'm an atheist, because I was raised hardcore in the church. Maybe there's something more to it... hmmm

[mspeight]

I hate when people don't think freely. Most my family don't know I a passionate atheist so they make me go to CCD because if i protested i would be skinned alive (well not that extreme). When i went to CCD this week there was probably over 100 of my classmates and it just was torture watching them accept Christianity like sheep to the slaughter

[Voter]

There comes a time in everyone’s life where they realize that their parents are human, too. They are not perfect, they are not always right, and in fact, whether or not they are smart or good people hasn’t the slightest to do with the fact that they are your parents. They have the same chance of being ignorant or evil as anyone you might meet on the street. It might seem disrespectful to think of your parents in this fashion, but all you’re doing is looking from a broader perspective, viewing your parents as if you were not their child.

But looking at our parents this way is uncomfortable, so why would we do it? In short, we do it because we don’t trust other people like that, so what makes our parents so special? We don’t swallow everything fed to us by others, so why should we make an exception for our parents?

Let’s not limit this to our parents. It applies to all who we have trusted and respected since childhood, anyone who had a hand in our upbringing.

That they've presumably demonstrated a greater concern for your well-being than anyone you might meet on the street makes them special. I'd give their opinions greater weight than those of people on the internet who've never done anything tangible for me.

Let me elaborate by giving an example.

My younger brother is fifteen years old. He is in the kitchen with my father. My brother mentions something he read earlier that day: “Did you know that the current casualties of the war in Iraq total to 4,145?”

My father, a simple (if somewhat confused) conservative is immediately on the defensive. “I don’t want to hear that mess. You need to show more respect to those men who died for our country. Freedom isn’t free.”

You see, freethinking is discouraged in my household. According to my father, my brother is not entitled to his opinion because having an opinion is disrespectful. Such a liberal viewpoint, in his opinion, is not only incorrect, but immoral. He regularly chastises his son for having an apposing viewpoint. This hurts me because I can see that my brother struggles to think independently in the iron grip of my father’s totalitarian family philosophy. Does he really believe that he has the right to push his beliefs onto his children? Isn’t that, after all, what parents do?

Your father chastises your brother for having an opposing viewpoint. You're chastising your father for having an opposing viewpoint.

My father misses my brother’s point completely. This is made evident in his (oh so original) statement, “Freedom isn’t free.” Does he not realize that the case my brother is making is that the war in Iraq is not for freedom?

Can't say based on the little you've provided. Maybe your father would have done better to point out that we spend billions on health care, and that kills 200,000 a year - for more than Iraq.

Then my father says something else, one of the most disturbing things I’ve ever heard out of his mouth. “Sounds like you need to be readin’ more of the Old Testament.”

Wow.

This appalling statement has even more appalling implications and leads us to the bulk of what I’d like to talk about: our parents’ weird, nonsensical, and narrow minded beliefs that they hand down to us as children when we are too young to give consent or think for ourselves.

Please note: In the following, I refer mainly to the Judeo-Christian Faith because I am familiar with it and because most people I know believe it.

So why do you believe what you believe? You may try to convince me (and yourself) that your parents didn’t cause you to be Christian because they gave you a choice. But did they really? Have they ever entertained the mere possibility that they are wrong and that you have options? Of course not; to do that would be immoral from their point of view. What would your parents think of you if you didn’t share their beliefs? Wouldn’t they do anything to save you from hell? You see, my point is not to expose your parents as ill willed, because their intentions are surely admirable. My point is to help you realize that yes, if it weren’t for your parents, you would not believe the things you believe.
I was born and raised in a Christian family for 20 years. Long before I ever considered the possibility that it was all bullocks, I came to grips with the fact that if I was born into a Catholic or Muslim family, I would share their beliefs instead. You may be snooty and self-righteous enough to say that‘s not true of yourself, but you don’t believe it. Think about it. Your parents greatly affected the way you think; you were taught from an early age not to challenge or question them. When you were the most impressionable, your parents were the one’s making the impressions. Children can not think for themselves, but you are not a child anymore. You owe it to yourself and your children to re-examine the things you believe.

I'm more religious than my parents. Lots of people are. Since this is to be a general letter, you need to rethink this argument.

I was not only a Christian for twenty years; I was hardcore Christian, passionate about my faith, obsessive about my sin, and wary of the ways of the secular world. If you were to ask me why I believed what I believed, my answer would be as follows, and I’m sure all our answers fall into these categories.

1. Other People â€" Everyone I knew was a Christian, everyone I looked up to, loved and respected. That is a very powerful thing. If everyone I knew believed it, it was virtually impossible for me not to accept it as truth. My parents made sure that I was only around those who shared the faith. If everyone else accepted it, it must be true, right? Who was I to deviate? Yet everyone believing in something does not make it true.

You went from theism to atheism. Lots of people have. You need to rethink this argument.

2. Fear of Hell â€" Fear is a very powerful tool as well. When my logic began to make me question the validity of the bible, the fear of eternal damnation helped me shut those thoughts out.

3. Beauty â€" The world is a beautiful place. For no reason, with no backing, I associated the beauty of the world with the god of the bible. Why would I do that? That the world is beautiful doesn’t prove that Christians are right, because it’s not fair to automatically associate that beauty with your god and claim it as your own.

Good question - why would you do that? You're projecting your own shortcomings and failure as a Christian onto all Christians.

4. Personal Experience â€" My emotions played a huge role in my faith. I believed when I worshiped, I could feel god’s presence. Again, it’s all about unfair association. I was associating those feelings with a god that I was told existed. Feelings that arose from the natural beauty of music, from my friends and family singing along, and from all the emotion in the room. Why do you think we get together to worship? The real question is: do our emotions validate this belief? Euphoric feelings arise from many situations. Can we trust our inconsistent emotions, which we know from science are the result of chemicals in the brain, to guide us spiritually? And if so, who’s to say what religion we associate those emotions with?

Same as above. Some churches rely on emotion, but not all do. If this is to be a general letter, you need to rework this.

Aside from these reasons, which I have just exposed as hollow, there is no basis for believing such nonsense. There is no proof that the bible is accurate. There is no sort of evidence to lead us to that conclusion, just crowds of sincere believers. They all believe because they all believe.

You are your father's son. By proclaiming that there is no rational evidence to be Christian, you shut down the possibility for rational discussion.

[myleviathan]

That they've presumably demonstrated a greater concern for your well-being than anyone you might meet on the street makes them special. I'd give their opinions greater weight than those of people on the internet who've never done anything tangible for me.

You're right, and I think that it's healthy to give your parent's opinions some extra thought. I'm sure Dodgecity has done that. Someone who is raised in a Christian home and realizes slowly but surely they don't believe anymore think about these matters obsessively, which is why Dodge wrote the letter in the first place. It's important to remember that it's possible to differ from our parents in matters of faith and still have a healthy relationship.

I love my mother, and she loves me. We have a great relationship. She's an evangelical Christian and I'm an atheist. We're good friends. I'm sure she loves me more than anyone else on earth (probably more than my wife), so I do respect her opinions. But that doesn't mean I have to give them 'more weight' when they're obviously flawed.

Your father chastises your brother for having an opposing viewpoint. You're chastising your father for having an opposing viewpoint.

I don't think Dodge is 'chastising' her dad by believing differently than him. Chastising involves punishment, or treating someone differently based on their beliefs. That type of behavior is ethically wrong. Christian parents do this to their kids alot, although I realize some are worse than others.

I'm more religious than my parents. Lots of people are. Since this is to be a general letter, you need to rethink this argument.

You can't argue that environment plays a huge role in influencing what someone will believe. There may be other factors, which explain why you're more religious than your parents, and why I'm less religious than mine. In my opinion those factors are purely genetic in nature.

Good question - why would you do that? You're projecting your own shortcomings and failure as a Christian onto all Christians.

That's a very caustic and insulting statement to make to someone you don't know. In fact it doesn't make sense in relation to the question, which was:

For no reason, with no backing, I associated the beauty of the world with the god of the bible. Why would I do that?

Would you care to further explain your response?

Some churches rely on emotion, but not all do. If this is to be a general letter, you need to rework this.

Wrong. They all do. Do you think people come to Jesus from reasoning it out? Nope. All evangelical pastors rely on the use of emotional manipulation to get you in and then to get you to tithe. At which point they get you to go out and make disciples. It's really all one big network marketing scheme. Only nobody gets a Ferrari (except Joel Olsteen).  

By proclaiming that there is no rational evidence to be Christian, you shut down the possibility for rational discussion.

There is no rational evidence for Christianity. If there was we would all be Christians. When it comes to Christianity, there's nothing rational to discuss. All miracle claims and God-men raising from the dead.

Can't say based on the little you've provided. Maybe your father would have done better to point out that we spend billions on health care, and that kills 200,000 a year - for more than Iraq.

Ha!! A great justification for war. It's safer than the American Healthcare system! Great stuff.

It's really incredible to me that the vast majority of Christians are supporters of war. WWJB? (Who Would Jesus Bomb)

[Voter]

I don't think Dodge is 'chastising' her dad by believing differently than him. Chastising involves punishment, or treating someone differently based on their beliefs. That type of behavior is ethically wrong. Christian parents do this to their kids alot, although I realize some are worse than others.

Chastise can mean to criticize severely. Severe is a matter of opinion, but there's criticism there.

That's a very caustic and insulting statement to make to someone you don't know. In fact it doesn't make sense in relation to the question, which was: For no reason, with no backing, I associated the beauty of the world with the god of the bible. Why would I do that?Would you care to further explain your response?

In general, a primary aim of Christianity is to maintain faith, so someone who becomes an atheist after having passionate faith for twenty years has failed as a Christian.

In particular, he accepted an association without reason or backing. He seems to be admitting this was in error. I'm just agreeing.

Wrong. They all do. Do you think people come to Jesus from reasoning it out? Nope. All evangelical pastors rely on the use of emotional manipulation to get you in and then to get you to tithe. At which point they get you to go out and make disciples. It's really all one big network marketing scheme. Only nobody gets a Ferrari (except Joel Olsteen).

With that definition of evangelical, not all pastors or churches are evangelical. Mine isn't. Reason is emphasized greatly over emotion.

There is no rational evidence for Christianity. If there was we would all be Christians.

Incorrect. Evidence is not necessarily conclusive. Testimony in a courtroom is evidence, but all the jurors don't necessarily agree with it.

When it comes to Christianity, there's nothing rational to discuss. All miracle claims and God-men raising from the dead.

Miracle claims can be discussed rationally.

Ha!! A great justification for war. It's safer than the American Healthcare system! Great stuff.

That statistic helps put 4,000 deaths over several years in perspective, at least to rational people.

[Asmodean]

Incorrect. Evidence is not necessarily conclusive. Testimony in a courtroom is evidence, but all the jurors don't necessarily agree with it.

There is valid juridical evidence and there is valid scientific evidence. And proving something in the court of science is in some ways way harder that proving something in the court of law.

For instance, a witness observation is often considered strong evidence in court but is very weak evidence (or not evidence at all) in science.

And when it comes to Christianity, there is no scientific backup for its very foundation, and as such it's a shaky construction in the eyes of science at best. Just another weird hypothesis.

[dodgecity]

Thanks to myleviathan for pointing out some huge flaws in this guy's "critique". I was going to take care of it tonight but he beat me to it in a very polite and witty manner.

I'd like to point out some other things Voter seems to have misunderstood.

I'd give their opinions greater weight than those of people on the internet who've never done anything tangible for me.

First of all, it's made evident by this statement that you have never met an atheist in real life. For that, I am very sorry. I remember what it was like, and I could never had stepped out of my comfort zone if someone hadn't challenged my assumptions about god. I will always be thankful for that, and I hope one day that you can experience it as well. I would say that I could try to be that person for you, but you obviously don't take "people on the internet" very seriously, which isn't really fair, considering that we're all real people who just happen to be communicating in this means.

But there's something else in this statement that bothers me. My parents are very special to me. I didn't say they weren't. But why should their opinions be special? Their concern for my well being is not related in any way to the validity of their opinions about life. I don't really see how you can refute that.

There is something else you took the wrong way, and this is important.

I'd give their opinions greater weight than those of people on the internet.

It's not about weighing opinions of different people. Don't you see that? It's about evidence. It's about reason.

I didn't mean to imply that listening to parents is a bad thing. After all, we all learn from our parents, it's imperative for survival. They teach us many important things, like don't touch the stove burner, don't cross the street without looking both ways, treat other people as you would like to be treated, etc.

It's just that when we grow up, we examine those things and realize why we were taught them. I was taught not to touch the stove burner because the high temperature will burn me. I do not blindly cross the street because the chances of me being run over are very high. I treat other people as I would like to be treated because I realize that they are just like me and I want them to do the same, so we can all live together in harmony.

But if you examine why your parents taught you a particular religion, you realize the reason is simply this: their parents taught them. And that, my friend, is not enough. So you have to look for your own reasons.

You're chastising your father for having an opposing viewpoint.

Alright, when you say something like this, it makes me think that you're arguing for the sake of arguing. I am upset (not even close to chastising) because my father chastises my brother. I am not upset because of his viewpoint. I made this perfectly clear.

Lots of people are.

Not really. It's hard to dispute the word, "lots" because it's very vague. but if you said "most", you'd be dead wrong. Most people follow the religion of their parents; this is a fact, unlike your ambiguous, anecdotal statement. Why do you think that is?

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http://www.wadsworth.com/religion_d/special_features/popups/maps/matthews_world/images/w001.jpg

You went from theism to atheism. Lots of people have. You need to rethink this argument.

I haven't a clue as to what you're trying to say here. What does that have to do with what you quoted?

You're projecting your own shortcomings and failure as a Christian onto all Christians.

They are shortcomings indeed, and I am very ashamed of them. But your are completely wrong to say they are unique to me. You would list Hell as a good reason to accept Jesus, would you not? (That's not a rhetorical question, so answer it.) You would associate the beauty of the world with the God of the Bible, would you not? These are all things that Christians do. How exactly are you telling me that they're shortcomings?

Some churches rely on emotion, but not all do.

Are you saying that you you've never felt God's presence? I'm not trying to be facetious, I'm really not, but you have to admit you're contradicting yourself. I never said that churches rely on emotion. I said I was affected by emotion! Are you not affected by emotion? Are you saying that has nothing to do with your belief? I'm honestly confused.

You are your father's son.

You are obviously just trying to hit a nerve here, and i find it uncivil, not to mention very un-Christlike! You're saying that I'm just like my father? Your reasons behind this:

By proclaiming that there is no rational evidence to be Christian, you shut down the possibility for rational discussion.

I am suggesting that there is no rational evidence(because I have looked my whole life)and if you'd like to refute that, by all means, you have my full attention.

[myleviathan]

Chastise can mean to criticize severely. Severe is a matter of opinion, but there's criticism there.

It could, but dodge said 'chastise', not criticize. Obviously it's more than mere criticism or she would have used that word. She has described the home environment as 'totalitarian'. I have a feeling chastisement does not stop at criticism.

In general, a primary aim of Christianity is to maintain faith, so someone who becomes an atheist after having passionate faith for twenty years has failed as a Christian.

It makes you sound mean and low to talk so bluntly of a failure, whatever it's nature. If your version of God does exist don't you think it's His job to judge failure? You can't throw failure into anybody's face lightly.

In particular, he accepted an association without reason or backing. He seems to be admitting this was in error. I'm just agreeing.

I see. Like you have more support for your faith than any of us former Christians did? Bull. Your faith just requires less.

With that definition of evangelical, not all pastors or churches are evangelical. Mine isn't. Reason is emphasized greatly over emotion.

Are you a seven day adventist by any chance? You smell like one. Reason may be greatly emphasized over emotion, but emotion is still an extremely important component of faith accross the board. Themes like sacrifice, love, hope, are all important to all denominations of Christianity, and they are all very emotionally stimulating. All church leaders worth their salt know how to tweak your emotional brain.

There is no rational evidence for Christianity. If there was we would all be Christians.

Incorrect. Evidence is not necessarily conclusive. Testimony in a courtroom is evidence, but all the jurors don't necessarily agree with it.

That's because it's all second-hand evidence. The evidence for the existence of Christ is much worse than evidence second-hand, because it's removed by a couple thousand years. At least courtroom testimony is fresh. It's interesting you compare evidence for Christianity and courtroom evidence, considering lawers are expert in knowing how to emotionally manipulate the jury. The clergy does the same thing.

Miracle claims can be discussed rationally.

Sure they can, but the claims themselves are not rational in any way shape or form.

Ha!! A great justification for war. It's safer than the American Healthcare system! Great stuff.

That statistic helps put 4,000 deaths over several years in perspective, at least to rational people.

By rational people do you mean people who jump in the name of Jesus anytime a republican cries war? You're comparing the death rate for an entire nation to the death rate of one military campaign. That's a priest-craft perspective for you. Besides, there have obviously been far more deaths than 4,000. That's just American soldiers. What a senseless loss for all.

[afreethinker30]

This is why I think that children (no matter their parents belief is) should be taught about all religions.Even though I am an atheist,I believe that my thoughts should not be forced upon my children.I want them to think about what is best for them.If when they are older and tell me they believe in a christian god,then I will make sure they know about the good and bad.But it's not my choice it's theirs.

If only people would see that murder is murder even in the name of a God.I think you are doing a good thing for your brother.It's a shame that parents tell their children to be good just because God is watching.

[Voter]

Incorrect. Evidence is not necessarily conclusive. Testimony in a courtroom is evidence, but all the jurors don't necessarily agree with it.

There is valid juridical evidence and there is valid scientific evidence. And proving something in the court of science is in some ways way harder that proving something in the court of law.

For instance, a witness observation is often considered strong evidence in court but is very weak evidence (or not evidence at all) in science.

And when it comes to Christianity, there is no scientific backup for its very foundation, and as such it's a shaky construction in the eyes of science at best. Just another weird hypothesis.

Seeing as religion is generally not discussed in the court of science, whatever that is, I don't get your point.