The Elizabeth Fritzl case and where was God in this suffering

[GreenBlaze]

I have decided to link to what I have written on this topic.  This is a new way of looking at this topic.

I read an article about an MP called Kemi Badenoch in the UK that was about their faith. They said that they had lost their faith in Christianity because of a case in the media about a woman called Elizabeth Fritzl which proved to be the final catalyst for them leaving the faith to adopt Christian values. In the article Kemi argued that God didn't intervene in a case for over 20 years. On reading this I felt that we will never know how God may have been involved and God may have intervened in this case. The Christian faith does not work on giving messages to strangers to others to resolve cases of crime. This is consulting mediums and also may be known as the spirit of divination which the faith does not support (Deuteronomy 18:10-12). In this case the mother didn't know that their child was in captive. I will say here, we failed as a community in this case to help Elizabeth earlier. We do not know if God through their spirit however tried to give Elizabeth instincts to help them to escape earlier and they didn't respond to them earlier. This is more information about the case.

The father exhibited evil behaviour whether he was mentally ill or just evil himself and this is not the fault of God, but of sin, man or evil. People can behave in an evil manner because of temptation and they have their own will to act but this not the fault of God who only does good.  Original sin came into the world with Adam with creation. God calls us to be obedient and Christ is the only perfect one and we are to imitate him and we need to have our identity in Christ and do his will (2 Thessalonians 3:7-12). People have their own will and choices and may choose to behave in an abominable manner and paths of evil (1 Corinthians 6:9). God has a perfect will for us and evil leads to corruption and a rejection of God's light. God can and does respond, in sometimes unknowing ways to us, he always listens and sometimes his response isn't a worldly one.

Trauma too is complicated, it can have a paralysing effect on the body leading into inaction and this is when we need to step in and help.  Elizabeth to may have had other conditions early in life that affected her thinking. Being lost and afraid and still in a youth's mind as a adult, they are vulnerable. Autumn Miles spirit of God told her when being abused she wrote in her own testimony of her life to find a way out.

We do not know what happened inside or what was happening with Elizabeth. There is a law in Leviticus not to partake in incest (Leviticus 18:6-26). I must state although this was not Elizabeth's fault and was her lived reality and God loved her to-it may have been a barrier for intervention from God along this timeline this possibility and this I do not know, but it is  thought. This is a case to of  unequal domination over another which the Bible to does not support (Galatians 3:28).  Also, was Elizabeth baptised to allow more communication from God's spirit to communicate with Elizabeth during this time.

I also did not see reports myself that Elizabeth was praying during this time every day as claimed in the lead article. I imagine that her soul was overwhelmed at many points during this time (Psalm 143). I have been unwell at times in my life and then I needed people to pray for me. After some time with trauma your lived reality may become normalised to you. We also need to stop an activity sometimes for God to manifest. God though cares for the afflicted and this is his promise to them and it is written in Psalm 72 "May he defend the afflicted among the people. For he will deliver the needy who cry out, the afflicted who have no one to help. He will take pity on the weak and the needy." God hates violence to as Psalm 11 tells us "The Lord trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth. God is about justice and takes retribution himself for evil in the end. God's spirit will not striveth with man forever (Genesis 6:3).

The below is from Autumn Mile's extract-     
In that moment, the Spirit of God said: "Do you remember me?" I knew it was the Lord. When the creator speaks to the created, their soul stands to attention. I knew he was referencing my childhood. I said: "Yes, I remember you, but if you're so real, how could you let this happen to me?" Then I said: "If you're actually real, you've got to speak now. You've got to show me."

I saw a Bible in the corner of the room. I flipped it open on Psalm 91:16: "With long life I will satisfy him and show him my salvation." Nobody knew I was contemplating suicide, but God did. Psalm 91 saved my life that night. It was my moment of conversion. I literally fell on the floor and asked Jesus to come into my heart and save me. 

Being a Christian doesn't mean that things will always be easy and we can be tested as the Bible says, but Jesus gives us his Holy Spirit the Comforter to make things easier which is his promise to us in John. God's intervention today largely happens through the Holy Spirit. The spirit of God can overshadow someone with a presence, that can overpower an enemy temporarily. One clear example of this in Christianity is Mary being overpowered by the spirit of God to receive conception. I have seen the Spirit of God's presence overpowering someone to and them fell into a stupor and a person could make time to flea that place in me, it gave me time to recover from an incident which was critical. God's Holy Spirit can also make people supernaturally strong temporarily divinely to cope with tragedy and to overcome evil. "He gives power to the faint and increases the strength of the weak" (Jude 1:24). 

God also doesn't give people what overwhelms them and if this happens he will provide a way out and we have to be ready to hear it. This is truth and man will be at fault if this occurs and sin and not God. (1 Corinthians 10:13) promises that God will not allow believers to be tempted beyond their ability to endure, and will always provide a way to escape the temptation. We have to trust him and do not have to actually try and work out all his actions, but just trust as the Book of Proverbs say (Proverbs 3:5-6). Jesus said that the yoke that he gives us is light to carry, but if it is not-the Beatitudes are in line with that we will be glorified for the persecution and test if it is the will of God in the eternal life and justice will come.

Sometimes if people do not do the will of God, God may appear silent or he may leave that place until they respect his word. Sometimes his answers to may not provide the solution we are looking for but they may provide a better alternative and we need to keep going and leave our old ways behind until we learn to let go of our way of doing things.

Natural disasters are a part of the world and we know with the end times that will have affliction to, but we need to hold on as Christians for the promise of eternal life. We need to hold onto our faith and Holy Spirit to survive the afflictions. Some people think we are in the end times now.

There is something to called God's perfect timing for a person and it is an individual thing for each person and we all have our own relationship with God, Moses was on probation for a full 40 years until he saw the light. Nelson Mandela  the President of South Africa who was imprisoned for 27 years in Robbin Island he was a Christian and after came out strong still with a formidable spirit and character. Kemi rejected God and we all have our own walk in life. It is not a good idea to leave your faith over how you think God handled  a case that we do not have full details of. This is about your eternal life to and the chance of it, but you may make this choice. Suffering and tests can help to shape us and give us discipline as well, whilst we have a loving just God. God can still show his hand after suffering has been endured and he can restore when things are broken down as the book of Jeremiah (Jeremiah 29:11-13).

This was an exceptional bad thing to happen. The community failed however though and we all need to learn from this. We have the attributes of God and need to use them as human beings. Check if someone is missing, is somebody appearing strange in the home, try and follow that hunch. This can be God inspired to. We need to keep the suffering of others in our prayers to. I hope that Elizabeth and her family are doing better today.

I think Christian values are better than no values and it can provide a framework for respecting others in society. There are remnants to in the very system itself like the NHS caring for others and the benefit system as well, caring for the poor when in need.

Sometimes in great cases of abuse, Christ I think may allow someone to end their mortal life and justice will be given  I have been mistreated at times in life and this is not God's doing, but the sin of the other person and I have considered that they may not wish to repair some peoples body who have very badly been beaten apart by another person mentally or physically, but let them come to him. I have not experienced this, but some Saints clearly have such as Saint Agatha who had her breast severed and who was taken by Christ eventually. Catherine of Siena was beheaded to, who is now a Saint.

God in my experience too likes crimes to be reported and people to seek medical attention for mental or medical issues if present as well before action at times.  God can also rescue people out of tragedy at times to and is often done by collective effort of the people using the attributes of God at times as well. This is just one case where God intervened in human tragedy and he intervened in mine to, with much less prayers needed as well. Bernadette Morieau a sister was to healed without asking God for a cure for her condition at Lourdes in France. God can welcome you back after some time away and always as St Theresa of Avila found to after suffering from illness, she returned to the church.

This blows me away to, but it is God at his best-"(Isaiah 44)  Thus says the Lord, the Kind of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: I am the first and the last; besides me there is no God. "who is like me? Let them be proclaim it, let them declare and set it forth before me. Who has announced from old the things to come? You are my witnesses! Is there any God besides me? There is no other rock; I know not one.

[Icarus]

According to my read, much of that article assures itself that it knows how God works, what he wants, and how humans must respond. For me, that is a lot of confident assumption without legitimate evidence to support it.

[Recusant]

You're a kind man Icarus, to actually click through on that link. I'm not sure that anybody else here did. We're all already familiar with Christian apologetics. For our sins.

Christian casuistry aka doubletalk might convince a believer to reinterpret the plain language of Isaiah 45:7 in a way that allows them to claim that their deity does not in fact consciously inflict suffering. Can't change the plain language though.

Isaiah also has something to say about claims to know YHVH's opinion on any particular topic.

[Dark Lightning]

I'm bored, so I opened this thread. Where was god during all the suffering? Not there, not here, not anywhere.

Isn't linking what one wrote elsewhere considered a form of spam?

[Recusant]

The general policy as I understand it is that it's definitely considered spamming if there's a link in the very first post. After they've been a member for a while links are usually OK. Having demonstrated a willingness to participate in civil discussion, they get the benefit of the doubt. It's not as if anybody is necessarily going to click on the link and if they do they'll have some idea of what they'll find.

In this particular case, our Christian member has put the time and effort into publishing their thoughts on the web. I can understand why there might be the inclination to get a response to those thoughts from atheists.

People get to devote themselves to some needlepoint on the great tapestry of their mythology. It's an impressive tapestry which lends a quality of significance to the needlepoint. I can't say I blame them, and I suppose it's part of why we're here. Not only as a meeting place for cantankerous non-believers but as a place for evangelists of a wide variety to hawk their wares.

Over the years we've had a significant sample of that wide variety. From AnimatedDirt to Mabus, and assorted more or less well-meaning types as well.

I think most of them don't actually believe they're going to make converts. In many cases it's just a sort of badge they can collect. In other contexts when making a point they can say, "I've talked with atheists and . . ."  Some clearly are essentially trolling for Jesus.

I remember one called "Bubblepot" who went out of his way to be particularly tiresome.

Not so many these days, and GreenBlaze is actually pleasant. Having previously ignored the link I decided to take a look, joining Icarus in giving time to our Christian member. I can see that a lot of effort has gone into the piece. Could use improvement in some areas and some revision to be more concise. Just assessing needlepoint as needlepoint if you will--I'm already laughably familiar with the tapestry.

[Dark Lightning]

Well, OK. I won't look in here anymore. I'll find something more interesting. 

[GreenBlaze]

Hi everyone, I did post it here and can do edit and paste it, I posted it first and pasted it. Then I removed it as it seemed I am not here to force things on others of this nature topic. I decided to just post the link if anyone wanted to decide to read it or skip it. I can edit it in again the post. I have now edited it in again.

This is doing its rounds in the UK based on a ministers views on this case. I blog for an interest and it is no advertising on there. There is no money to be made and it doesn't interest me. Thanks to those who read it though.

The question of why suffering is allowed in the world is always a big topic and that is why I posted it as well. This is article about this case and having Christian values only versus Christianity debate to that led me to respond--
https://premierchristian.news/en/news/article/kemi-badenoch-reveals-how-she-lost-her-faith-in-god

[Recusant]

Hi everyone, I did post it here and can do edit and paste it, I posted it first and pasted it. Then I removed it as it seemed I am not here to force things on others of this nature topic. I decided to just post the link if anyone wanted to decide to read it or skip it. I can edit it in again the post. I have now edited it in again.

This is doing its rounds in the UK based on a ministers views on this case. I blog for an interest and it is no advertising on there. There is no money to be made and it doesn't interest me. Thanks to those who read it though.

The question of why suffering is allowed in the world is always a big topic and that is why I posted it as well. This is article about this case and having Christian values only versus Christianity debate to that led me to respond--
https://premierchristian.news/en/news/article/kemi-badenoch-reveals-how-she-lost-her-faith-in-god

Given that you've proven willing to participate in civil discussions a wall of text is OK, but so is a link to your blog. Straight preaching is against our rules but discussion regarding members' thoughts and ideas is really what a discussion board like this is for. Not that everybody will want to participate in all discussions, of course. Members of this site are generally already familiar with the tenets of Christianity and some don't find them particularly intriguing.

[billy rubin]

in my opinion the problem of evil is the most important question in christianity. or of most religions, really.

buddhism and hindudim focus on samsara, islam has lots of rationalities.

its a universal problem that religious apologists try to solve. not well, in my opinion.

[Recusant]

Again, Isaiah has the answer wheother anybody finds the answer satisfactory or not. The link is there just for verification, full quote below:

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

See above for other clarifications from the same source.

For Islam the idea might be boiled down to "It is the will of Allah." Perhaps I should search the Koran for specific words, but most translations are even drearier than the Bible.