How old is the universe?

[Asmodean]

Because an entity's ability to purposefully influence its surroundings does not say anything at all about said surroundings beyond that they can be influenced. It does not address their requirement for consciousness, should any such exist in the first place.

To put it this way, I can put on a kettle. What does that say about the kettle, except that it can be acted upon in a certain way by my own sweet self?

[zorkan]

But the universe is a chaotic place because people will pick flowers.

https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/paul_dirac_388049

[Asmodean]

"Chaotic" in what sense?

[zorkan]

Like a butterfly flaps its wings and it starts to rain on the other side of the world.
Newly discovered black hole sucks in a stellar mass every day because someone light years away picked a flower.

https://www.space.com/chaos-theory-explainer-unpredictable-systems.html

[Asmodean]

Ah. "Chaos" theory, which actually deals with highly-ordered, interdependent systems.

Within that scope... As long as one does not ignore that an effect may have compound causes, just as a cause can lead to multiple effects... It may be philosophically amusing, I suppose.

[zorkan]

https://www.openaccessgovernment.org/age-of-universe-research-james-webb/163845/

To age it in units of orbits of our star needs redefinition also.
Time taken for light to travel across the nucleus of a hydrogen atom.
Say 10^42.
I like the number 42.

[Asmodean]

Ah, but you see...

10^42 what? how do you define that?

Eventually, you may just want to set the appropriate variable to 1, then define the rest relative to it. Makes a lot of complicated number crunching easier.

[zorkan]

Passage of light through hydrogen atom is measured in zeptoseconds.
Universe is at least 10^42 seconds old.
I never accepted the 13.7 billion years old estimate for the age of the universe.

https://www.livescience.com/zeptosecond-shortest-time-unit-measured.html

[Asmodean]

...And a second is what? Why do you accept that as a standard of measurement, and not a year? It's a bit like being fine with a meter but not a kilometer. Yes, one is the SI unit, but the other is expressed in terms of it and the SI unit itself is relative to something else, so...

I'm sorry, but it just seems silly.

Also, to pick on defenceless journalists a little, the article you quote states; "Meet the zeptosecond, the shortest unit of time ever measured," and in "the next breath," it goes on to say; "That time, for the record, is 247 zeptoseconds."

So, have they actually measured a zeptosecond-long event, or a 247 zeptosecond long one? Because there is two and a half orders of magnitude of difference there. If a zeptosecond has been measured no more than the Planck time, then "we" haven't met it - we just operate within its range.

All that aside, the minimum age you propose for the universe roughly corresponds to 30 decillion years, a decillion being 1*10^33. I'll give you that number, followed by the proposed age of the universe from the article you quoted a post above;

30000000000000000000000000000000000 <- This is the minimum age you propose, in years.
30000000000000 <- This is 30 long billion
30000000000 <- This is 30 short billion

Even if I done fucked up my math or missed a zero or two, your number is not even "in the same galaxy" as the other two. I'd love to see the math behind it, if you don't mind.

[zorkan]

Let's hear how you measure time.

I'm arguing for universal time, and not terrestrial time.
Paul Dirac found there is a fundamental unit of time good for anywhere in the universe, which is the duration it takes for light to cross the nucleus of an atom.
About ten trillionth of a second.
In that atomic unit the age of the universe is 10^40.
Dirac matched that to the ratio of the electric to gravitational attraction in the hydrogen atom.
With 10^42 I'm trying to improve it on the basis that 42 is the underlying answer to everything.

https://news.mit.edu/2019/answer-life-universe-and-everything-sum-three-cubes-mathematics-0910

Asmo: Don't take that too seriously.

[Asmodean]

I'm not taking it too seriously - only to the degree to which the subject fascinates and entertains me.

Let's get to your question first; I measure time relative to the Earth axial rotation. (Morning/afternoon/night/past day/present day/future day) in addition to comeasuring it in terms of Earth's orbital periods. I am also perfectly capable of using other reference points as required, but those two are the "daily work horses"

Now, onto the matters of interest. Thing is, you specifically said, "10^42 seconds" right here *point to quote,* kind-of proving my point in the process. Since I like mental exercises like this, however, I shall only make minimal effort to resist re-illustrating it.

Universe is at least 10^42 seconds old.

...Resistance failed.

The issue with "universal time" is that it would rely upon an agreed-upon origin and unit. To the best of my Earthly knowledge, no such agreement exists on Earth, let alone the universe.

For instance, how long does light take to get from the Sun to Earth? Well, if you count from the "birth" of the individual photon near the star's core, it's millennia. If you count from it leaving photosphere, it's mere minutes. Both are legitimate answers, though they answer slightly (albeit also profoundly) different questions. It doesn't really matter how you arrive at the unit of time or what name you call it - it's still two discrete measurements, telling you two different stories. Whether you express it in terms of 10^42 or the time it takes a steel spoon to completely rust away in a specific swamp, the point of origin is ambiguous until specified - so is the unit of measurement.

[zorkan]

I'm still no clearer as how the Asmo measures time, other than not liking 10^42 atomic units.

I doubt if intelligent aliens would measure it in terms of earth years.
Far more likely they would by atomic units.

In the pre-Copernican it would have been understandable to measure time from scripture.
In the atomic age, why do we still persist in a classical and not a quantum interpretation?

[zorkan]

For instance, how long does light take to get from the Sun to Earth? Well, if you count from the "birth" of the individual photon near the star's core, it's millennia.

You do not state how many millennia.
https://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2012/04/24/3483573.htm#:~:text=A%20photon%20of%20light%20takes,at%20the%20speed%20of%20light.

Could be 1 million years or longer, but then only takes 8 minutes to reach earth.

[Asmodean]

You do not state how many millennia.

Because it has no relevance to the point in question. I could as well have used rusting spoons or melting snowmen as years.

I doubt if intelligent aliens would measure it in terms of earth years.
Far more likely they would by atomic units.

What reason would they have to use such units? How do they relate to their day/night cycle, if they have one, or their travel distances, life expectances and other biological/mechanical processes?

What would likely have happened in the event of a meeting is much similar to what happened on earth when civilisations met. We can convert degrees Fahrenheit and degrees Celsius into each other because we understand the relative difference between them. The same goes for ounces and kilograms, inches and arshins and so forth.

So, for example, if we measure time in seconds and Lrrr from Omicron Percei 8 measures time in Smismars, then it would be a matter of finding the mathematical relation between a second and a smismar - not necessarily agreeing on which of the two units to standardise upon. That may be prudent somewhere down the line, provided sufficient practical upside - or it may not be. There is a reason the Earthly foot survives alongside the equally-Earthly meter. Both present a practical way of measuring what they are designed for.

Where prudent, we may agree on a common unit which is neither of the local ones. If enough "measurers" in the Universe agree upon such units, beyond the very smallest or the very largest, provided that those can be considered constant, which are of limited use "in daily life," then those units could be considered universal.

Time, distance and so forth. They are things. They are what they are. Measurements are observations. A universal unit of measurement would necessitate a universal observer (or, as per my example, a universal agreement among discrete observers)

[zorkan]

You can guarantee that a hydrogen atom on earth is the same as any other in the universe, so why not use it for dating the universe.
Earthlings continue to prove they are still living in the Pre-Copernican.
A significant number still believe the earth is 6000 years old and humans walked with dinosaurs.
Ask a Christian about the age of the earth and the cosmos and they will change the subject.