Israeli-Hamas war

[Dark Lightning]

none of the people dying there today have been killing anybody for millenia.

evrry man, woman, and child there today dies his own personal death.

the past is ancient history. the solutions need to be in present time.

I know that. It's a feature of the region, sick as that may be.

[billy rubin]

a perspective on why that is:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/14/gaza-lost-generation-conditioned-to-worship-death-israel?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

[Tank]

This makes interesting reading and filled in some historical details.

Zionism

The history of the conflict is interesting. And I agree with Billy that the ultimate aim of the Jewish/Israeli state, the Zionist state, is the removal of all in internal threats to its existence. The current aim is to clear all of the Palestinians it can from northern Gaza across Wadi Gaza. Then they will erase northern Gaza. They will not stop until there isn't a living soul in that area or they perceive the damage they are doing to their external support outweighs the benefit.

Israel will not allow another Holocaust. Hamas simple do not realise or appreciate this. There is no real future for any Palestinian in Israel.

[Tank]

Did America warn the civilian citizens of Hiroshima, Nagasaki or Tokyo they were about to obliterate them?
Did the Allies warn the civilian citizens of Hamburg they were about to bomb them to oblivion?
Did the Germans warn the civilian citizens of London and Coventry they were about to attack them?
Did Hamas warn the civilian citizens of Israel before it attacked?
Did Bin Ladin warn the civilian citizens of New York before it attacked?
Did the Nazi's warn the Jews they were going to try to exterminate them?
History is full with examples of civilian populations being murdered without warning.

Israel has warned the civilian citizens of Gaza that it is going to attack Gaza and to get out before it attacks. Can anybody remember such a thing being done before? I can't.

[billy rubin]

israel warns them to leave, then prevents them from leaving. the borders are closed. by israel.

then israel rockets the evacuation route, killing 70 people trying to evacuate, yesterday, i think?

israel waited a bit, then rocketed the responding ambulances and EMTs.

make your own assessments of how israel facilitates the safety of palestinian civilians:

[Icarus]

According to the vid here, the Brits have some culpability for the sad state of Palestinian reality.

This video has a pro Palestine bent. If this is historically true, then we may have gotten the shoe on the wrong foot.

[Asmodean]

Whatever your hindsight-position may be, today Israel is a sovereign nation. It has been attacked by a militant Islamist organisation. In my opinion, this means that they must defend their citizens as a matter of course. I'm actually mildly impressed by their warning for the non-combatants to leave and how they've refrained from deploying a large-scale counter-invasion this long, thereby - intentionally or otherwise - actually allowing for some form of evacuation of Northern Gaza to take place.

make your own assessments of how israel facilitates the safety of palestinian civilians:

I'm sorry, how Israel facilitates the safety of Someone else's civilians? Israel's duty is to its own civilians above all other concerns. Is it not up to Palestinian authorities, a joke though they are, to facilitate the safety of Palestinians?

If you mean as a matter of military operations specifically, well, it seems like their strategy is working - as your statistic points out, this current escalation claimed more Israeli lives than any other for the last three quarters of a century. That's a lot of years of comparative success in their mandate as a nation's military force.

[The Magic Pudding..]

According to the vid here, the Brits have some culpability for the sad state of Palestinian reality.

This video has a pro Palestine bent. If this is historically true, then we may have gotten the shoe on the wrong foot.

No, no, no.
We were just getting over the Romans and the bloody Northmen came and traumatised us.
Ever since then we've been suffering from a psychological condition I haven't made up a name for yet.
So it's all Asmo's fault really.

[Asmodean]

So it's all Asmo's fault really.

The Asmo is positively basking in His own Evilness.

...Attributed or otherwise...

[billy rubin]

Whatever your hindsight-position may be, today Israel is a sovereign nation. It has been attacked by a militant Islamist organisation. In my opinion, this means that they must defend their citizens as a matter of course. I'm actually mildly impressed by their warning for the non-combatants to leave and how they've refrained from deploying a large-scale counter-invasion this long, thereby - intentionally or otherwise - actually allowing for some form of evacuation of Northern Gaza to take place.

make your own assessments of how israel facilitates the safety of palestinian civilians:

I'm sorry, how Israel facilitates the safety of Someone else's civilians? Israel's duty is to its own civilians above all other concerns. Is it not up to Palestinian authorities, a joke though they are, to facilitate the safety of Palestinians?

If you mean as a matter of military operations specifically, well, it seems like their strategy is working - as your statistic points out, this current escalation claimed more Israeli lives than any other for the last three quarters of a century. That's a lot of years of comparative success in their mandate as a nation's military force.

well, asmo, i dont know what to say.

at what point does bestial violence become acceptable to otherwise civilized onlookers like you and me?

when a band of nihilistic arabs consumate the murder of the israelis who have oppressed their families for generations?

or when the israelis expand their righteous vengeance and murder thousands of arabs, most of them children, who have never known any other life and know nothing of politics?

there is no cleverly parsed assignment of responsibility here.

only people dying who have never known any other reality.

is it time to finally stamp out the evil, and kill off those who wont accept a servile and cowering existence?

or perhaps might there be a solution that doesnt involve thousands more dead in a never-ending cycle of violence?

you have a lot of opinion in this matter.

tell me your solution.

[Asmodean]

well, asmo, i dont know what to say.

at what point does bestial violence become acceptable to otherwise civilized onlookers like you and me?

This is a very good question. Perhaps the right question, even.

I would say that as a nation, when faced with a group aiming for your destruction or to bring harm to your citizens within your own borders... Yeah. You fight. Fight not with the goal of re-stabilizing the situation, but first and foremost, of removing the threat.

when a band of nihilistic arabs consumate the murder of the israelis who have oppressed their families for generations?

or when the israelis expand their righteous vengeance and murder thousands of arabs, most of them children, who have never known any other life and know nothing of politics?

Personally, I see three decisive outcomes for ending (Well, not really. "Diminishing" might be more descriptive) that particular conflict: No Israel, no Palestine or no militant Islamists in Palestine. While I would prefer the latter, I think the practical choice is between the two former, and then I'm not shy about saying that from the position of my values and wishes for the world, I would much rather have an Israel on the map of the Middle East than I would Palestine. I don't think both is possible at this point.

there is no cleverly parsed assignment of responsibility here.

only people dying who have never known any other reality.

No, this post I'm responding to right now is a good take. It's not as simple as "everything is X's fault," so I, for one, try to approach the situation from the position of today. What are the standing realities? How are they most- or least likely to be resolved? Who, if any-one, would I support?

you have a lot of opinion in this matter.

tell me your solution.

I doubt you will like my idea. It basically involves no more autonomous Gaza. Of course, if you set it up against option 2, which is pretty damned close to genocide, it suddenly becomes far less bleak. Option 3 is... More of this. "Forever."

[Tank]

there is no cleverly parsed assignment of responsibility here.

only people dying who have never known any other reality.

 

This should be shared far and wide. I am going to use this.

[Asmodean]

Indeed, though without a solution, it's just an observation of reality. A good one, to be sure, but of unfortunately-little use for that.

Yes. People who "never" knew different are dying in large numbers. And..?

The international law is not worth the paper it is written on in this conflict - nor any conflict where one or several parties simply do not care.

The appeals to the better nature of humanity are so much wasted breath because that better nature is too easily beaten down and subdued by real people, living real lives in a "constant" life-or-death situation.

The international condemnation is hollow;
"I condemn this."
"Well fucking good for you, then."

What else besides siding with the party you'd rather see win - or being effectively useless - is there?

[Tom62]

The death toll statistics look pretty bad. However since WW-II the death toll amongst civilians (caused by military actions) have always been much higher than the military death toll. I assume that death toll statistics of the US and Russian military actions (in Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.) are equally bad or even worse.     

[The Magic Pudding..]

What else besides siding with the party you'd rather see win - or being effectively useless - is there?

I enjoy throwing imaginary passed used date fruits and vegetables at the think they knows.
"siding with the party you'd rather see win"
You'll be following sports next.