How to save the world, or not.

[Asmodean]

10. My life goal is to save the world.

Save it from what? Why does it need saving from that? Why do you want that job?

[gentle_dissident]

10. My life goal is to save the world.

Save it from what? Why does it need saving from that? Why do you want that job?

Humanity is largely selfish, superstitious, and hateful. It is easily lead, and leaders are corrupt simply by being leaders. I try to chip away at the problems when they appear in front of me. We are intelligent mammals and can be trained to extreme. We have the wrong training.

I never wanted the job. It's just what I've always done.

[Asmodean]

Humanity is largely selfish, superstitious, and hateful. It is easily lead, and leaders are corrupt simply by being leaders. I try to chip away at the problems when they appear in front of me. We are intelligent mammals and can be trained to extreme. We have the wrong training.

I never wanted the job. It's just what I've always done.

Ah! So not saving the world as much as attempting to save humanity? Possibly also an ecosystem or two?

I don't think you can get rid of selfishness and still have the scientific progress be as fast as it is today, so personally, I would not get rid of that. Also, wars often drive progress, so hate..? Bring it on. Perhaps in a somewhat lesser amount, but it's useful. Superstition? Yes, fuck that. However, I think it's kind of hard-wired in us. Seeing patterns where there are none is, from an evolutionary standpoint, preferable to not seeing them where there are some.

[gentle_dissident]

Humanity is largely selfish, superstitious, and hateful. It is easily lead, and leaders are corrupt simply by being leaders. I try to chip away at the problems when they appear in front of me. We are intelligent mammals and can be trained to extreme. We have the wrong training.

I never wanted the job. It's just what I've always done.

Ah! So not saving the world as much as attempting to save humanity? Possibly also an ecosystem or two?

I don't think you can get rid of selfishness and still have the scientific progress be as fast as it is today, so personally, I would not get rid of that. Also, wars often drive progress, so hate..? Bring it on. Perhaps in a somewhat lesser amount, but it's useful. Superstition? Yes, fuck that. However, I think it's kind of hard-wired in us. Seeing patterns where there are none is, from an evolutionary standpoint, preferable to not seeing them where there are some.

Humanity and ecosystems are the world.

Cooperation and collaboration are more effective than competition.

War is for the shallow.

Yes, I operate on those patterns. We need to realize this so we develop the trait and not fear it or attribute it to an outside influence.

I remember acknowledging my skepticism at a very young age. I thought the world was backwards because they were believers. I eventually met other atheists.  I learned that they have their own kind of backwardness. The biggest flaw they have is the superiority complex. I admit, I have yet found a way to bring them down to Earth.

[Asmodean]

Humanity and ecosystems are the world.

I always understood it to mean this planet and all the crap on it.

Cooperation and collaboration are more effective than competition.

Yeah, but... Not really.

War is for the shallow.

Their depth is immaterial to this conversation. War is useful in several areas - the rest is down to personal prioritries.

Yes, I operate on those patterns. We need to realize this so we develop the trait and not fear it or attribute it to an outside influence.

Oh, certainly. As being killed by hyenas is pretty far down the list of worries for most of us, it would have been nice to shed that one.

The biggest flaw they have is the superiority complex. I admit, I have yet found a way to bring them down to Earth.

Some people are far superior to others in areas they prioritize. There is no need for complexes in acknowledging that.

[gentle_dissident]

Alright Asmo. I don't understand your attitude. I'll just refrain from engaging you. As I've stated, I have no idea how to change you for what I think is the better. I wish you a nice life.

[Asmodean]

My attitude..? On the issue at hand or my general disposition?

I approach the "larger issues" from a more or less purely utilitarian perspective. I'm not entirely sure what you consider to be "better" or "worse;" that, and the reasoning behind your assessment, is actually what I'm trying to clarify.

[gentle_dissident]

Asmo has asked me in a PM to not abandon the issue with him. So....

Perhaps you'll understand me better if you think of me as a hippie. People used to call me Jesus. I was told by a guy that it goes beyond my appearance. He said I've changed him and others for the better. However, those problems are fairly obvious to the general observer. The world's problems are more elusive.

During WWII, the US was encouraged to band together and cooperate to do great things. It's too bad that the leaders only promote cooperation during wartime.

[Magdalena]

...
Perhaps you'll understand me better if you think of me as a hippie.
...

[gentle_dissident]

That smiley is a great representation of me.

[Magdalena]

I think The Asmo wants his ego stroked. It hasn't been stroked in many, many, days. I apologize, Asmo, for neglecting you. 

gentle_dissident, next time The Asmo asks, "Save it from what? Why does it need saving from that? Why do you want that job?" Just say, "The world needs to be saved from Asmo's grey lump."
Why? "Because that's where wrath and dark clouds gather force, and not just Luxembourg trembles, the whole world does."
Why do you want that job? "Because hippies enjoy that sort of thing."

[Asmodean]

Asmo has asked me in a PM to not abandon the issue with him. So....

Perhaps you'll understand me better if you think of me as a hippie. People used to call me Jesus. I was told by a guy that it goes beyond my appearance. He said I've changed him and others for the better. However, those problems are fairly obvious to the general observer. The world's problems are more elusive.

During WWII, the US was encouraged to band together and cooperate to do great things. It's too bad that the leaders only promote cooperation during wartime.

Yes, actually. I've learned about some traits of hippiness from Magdalena. It seems to me like the hippie outlook on the world and its value is anchored in other things than my own. I find it interesting even when I fail to see the validity of the arguments made.

I'll try to sum up my points on the world's virtues and vices in a debate statement sort of way so they are easier to address from your perspective.

Mags, do jump on this thing too, if you are so inclined. EDIT: You did. Good.  And no, in this instance, I'm more interested in a discussion than in a good rubbing of my huge, throbbing... Ego 

My biggest problem with the concept of saving the world is that here, today, my world does not actually need saving. Yes, there is war, famine, disease, religious extremism... But then there is unsustainable population growth, which those things do sort-of keep in check in the areas where it's often at its worst.

Why do I bring up population growth as my keystone example? Well, if I were to do a good job saving people in a country where having six or seven children is nothing out of the ordinary, then I would get a Nobel prize of some sort and most of those children would live to have six or seven children of their own. They would strive for a better life for themselves and their children and put even more pressure on the finite resources that I currently claim. People being people, eventually I'll tell them to find their own and they will likely fight me for what I have.

That brings us smoothly to the subject of war. Wars are directly or indirectly responsible for a lot of innovations we find useful in peacetime, from surgery to nuclear energy, in addition to sometimes being useful in establishing political power balance and lining a few pockets.

In a not insignificant way, wars have driven and still do drive scientific progress. On my list of personal priorities, scientific progress has few things that surpass it for importance, but in a more general sense, there is usefulness in wars beyond killing off vast numbers of people, a lot of whom did nothing to deserve being killed in this manner. There I went and used the D-word... Well, we may need to branch this thing off into a sub-topic covering the just society and the amoral Universe.

I hope this has expanded on my view of why the depth of those fighting in wars comes secondary to the motives of those orchestrating them or the benefits to those profiting from them. Few of those people can be considered shallow or short-sighted.

When it comes to cooperation vs competition, in your own example you've demonstrated how competition breeds cooperation. That's one of its virtues. Without a drive to be better than someone else at something, would we not relatively quickly, if perhaps happily, stagnate as a specie?

I suppose my general point is that fixing humanity is unlikely to work on the macro scale until it is fixed on the scale of families and individuals - everywhere - and that competition, when harnessed in certain ways, can lead us there faster than inclusiveness and cooperation.

[Magdalena]

I don't know if gentle_dissident wants to debate Him, The Asmo. I don't. I'm not very good at debating on forums.

Mags, do jump on this thing too, if you are so inclined. EDIT: You did. Good.  And no, in this instance, I'm more interested in a discussion than in a good rubbing of my huge, throbbing... Ego 

Hey, I just wanted to rub His huge, throbbing...Ego, I don't want to talk or hug or anything like that. 
I'm cool.

[Bad Penny II]

Asmo has asked me in a PM to not abandon the issue with him. So....

Perhaps you'll understand me better if you think of me as a hippie. People used to call me Jesus. I was told by a guy that it goes beyond my appearance. He said I've changed him and others for the better. However, those problems are fairly obvious to the general observer. The world's problems are more elusive.

During WWII, the US was encouraged to band together and cooperate to do great things. It's too bad that the leaders only promote cooperation during wartime.

Do you mean solutions? the problems are kinda in your face.
Asmo is a literal kinda lump, but we.....ve all come become to be accustomed to him very much.
I used to have hippie tendancies but if you get a particulary whipy stick, flagellation is a cure.
If you travel to Tibet the ex Sherpas who can't carry charge hardly anything to be whacked.
And you know being there benefits the whole benighted village.

[Bad Penny II]

In a not insignificant way, wars have driven and still do drive scientific progress.

Ye some guy said that and you're repeating it, what was isn't necesarily relevant.

The last thirty years have been revlotutionary for knowledge,  no thanks to war, well maybe defence but that's another thing.