Sex (Yet another split topic)

[Court]

court, the reason I class homosexuals as such is because, according to the bible, 'every other sin is outside the body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body.'

does that clarify the issue?  If not, please look up the bible reference, which, after all, I adhere to, or post again, requesting more information.

The bible has an archaic, ridiculous, unnatural, backwards view of sex. How can following your natural sexual desires be a sin against your body? Do you see masturbation as a sin as well?

[Asmodean Prime]

court, masturbation - I'm not sure if it's a sin, but I think it is something to be avoided in an 'ideal' sort of way, as it involves fantasies which may not be helpful, or conducive to the general good of people in society.

please, if you will, start a new thread, maybe we can bounce ideas off one-another.

[Court]

(This is the new thread )

What "ideal" sort of way do you mean? It's completely healthy to masturbate. In fact, for males, it's a way to keep physically healthy.
I'm pretty sure no private sexual fantasies have ever harmed society. If you can think of one, shoot.
Not only that, but you can't stop fantasies. They're going to happen. How does it make them "worse" to physically masturbate?

[Asmodean Prime]

No, I'm saying that, generally, what people tend to masturbate, or fantasise over, they tend to translate into real life.  For example, raping women, or paedophilia, or whatever.  Whatever the mind focuses on for prolonged periods of time, they then tend to translate into real life scenarios.   Is it healthy for a man to fantasise continuously about tying up and raping a woman, and then, after a long period of considering this as normal behaviour, to then translate this into normal behaviour, and impose it on society at large?

[Court]

How often do you think that happens? Honestly. I'm talking about normal, functioning human beings. The person you just described wouldn't relate to christian morals, anyway.
 Let's try a different tack: Do you think it's immoral for YOU to masturbate? I know you're married now, but do you think it's bad for a normal, single man or woman to masturbate?

[iplaw]

My two cents:

Scripture never spoke to the topic of masturbation distinctly.  Most people think it falls into the category of acts which Paul called "unprofitable," I.E. the physical act of masturbation is neutral until combined with fantasy.  It comes down to a matter of the heart not the act itself.  Therefore it depends greatly on what the fantasy entails.  If I have a fantasy about my wife and I masturbate to that, no harm, no foul.  In contradistinction, if I were to fantasize about another woman that opens up a whole other can of worms.  

What is the emotional difference between masturbating to the thought of an adulterous act or actually comitting the act itself.  In my wife's eyes probably no difference.  What actually stings the most about infidelity, the thought of the actual physical act or mental anguish of rejection and the internalizing of the betrayal that our partner feels? Hence the teaching that if a man desires in his heart to committ adultery, he has committed the act already whether the physical act ever occurs.

Why do you think people default to the excuse of "it was only physical" when they get caught cheating?  I think it's because inherently we understand that the heart connection means more than the physical act.

I understand that these are the views of a desperately old fashioned married man so take them for what their worth.

[Court]

I've never understood the idea that the thought is as bad as the action. You can't help your thoughts. They are the unintentional firing of chemicals in your brain. If I feel lusty toward the pool boy for a few minutes, who cares? Moreover, how do I stop it if it's innocent and unintentional?
And "the physical act of masturbation is neutral until combined with fantasy"? I'm sorry, maybe I'm missing something, but does anyone else here have a hard time doing that without thinking of anything? Is it possible to masturbate without some sort of fantasy?

[Court]

Leviticus 15:16-18
And if any man's seed of copulation go out from him, then he shall wash all his flesh in water, and be unclean until the even. And every garment, and every skin, whereon is the seed of copulation, shall be washed with water, and be unclean until the even. The woman also with whom man shall lie with seed of copulation, they shall both bathe themselves in water, and be unclean until the even.
Gen.38:9-10
And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother. And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also.
Deuteronomy 23:10-11
If there be among you any man, that is not clean by reason of uncleanness that chanceth him by night, then shall he go abroad out of the camp, he shall not come within the camp. But it shall be, when evening cometh on, he shall wash himself with water: and when the sun is down, he shall come into the camp again.


It can be vague, yes, but the bible does mention masturbation...

[Asmodean Prime]

I've never understood the idea that the thought is as bad as the action. You can't help your thoughts. They are the unintentional firing of chemicals in your brain. If I feel lusty toward the pool boy for a few minutes, who cares? Moreover, how do I stop it if it's innocent and unintentional?
And "the physical act of masturbation is neutral until combined with fantasy"? I'm sorry, maybe I'm missing something, but does anyone else here have a hard time doing that without thinking of anything? Is it possible to masturbate without some sort of fantasy?

court, what then about paedophilia (english spelling)?  Are they then the unintentional firing of chemicals in your brain, and therefor to be excused?  Personally I think that everyone should control his/her emotions for the benefit of society at large.

[iplaw]

I think you made my point for me.  Thoughts preceed action; quintessential Viktor Frankel philosophy.  Re-read my post carefully.  I said it depends on what the object of desire is.

They are the unintentional firing of chemicals in your brain.

Interesting how we tend to repeat fantasies if we like them.  I would hardly attribute that to unintentional firings.

Moreover, how do I stop it if it's innocent and unintentional?

First I don't agree with you that thoughts are unintentional as it presumes to understand congitive responses of why we think at all and secondly fantasies in themselves are not evil.  Meditating on or acting on those fantasies that you know be detrimental or evil is wrong.

[Court]

Pedophilia is only dangerous if they act on it. I'm talking about the thought. Do you honestly equate unintentional fantasies with actually raping children?

Edit: Okay, maybe not unintentional. But I don't think the thoughts, especially if the person knows they are wrong, and tries to repress them, are as bad as the act.

[iplaw]

Maybe I should have been more specific to say that Jesus didn't teach about it.  I stand corrected.

[Court]

First I don't agree with you that thoughts are unintentional as it presumes to understand congitive responses of why we think at all and secondly fantasies in themselves are not evil.  Meditating on or acting on those fantasies that you know be detrimental or evil is wrong.

Are you telling me you've never had any unintentional thoughts?
I agree with your second point. I don't think that thoughts that we know are bad should be lingered upon. I also don't think thinking them in the first place is as bad as committing the act.

[Court]

Okay, I have to go home. I'll be back tomorrow morning, gentlemen.

[iplaw]

No I have thoughts that I often wonder, "where did that come from?"  I just prefer not to presume to know why thoughts come and go and I'm not so willing to chalk them up to unintentional chemical responses.

Can you imagine a scenario where a person would committ an act without there existing a preceding thought to initiate the act?  They work together not independently.  

I should have been more specific in stating that dwelling on the thought of adultery is the evil, not the inital thought, in that regard you are correct.  I can see a beautiful woman on the street and think "wow, she's hot" and that's not a sin.  What is sin is to dwell on that thought and begin to fantasize about it.

Also, I'm not trying to convince you that you are wrong and I am right.  I'm just stating what I believe to be what Christ taught and I don't presume to speak for others.